Transcript of Frankel's Free Clinic January 13, 2002

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:00 AM): Hey folks! How we doin' today?

Weber (1/14/2002 9:00 AM): Entered the room.

lvlady ( (1/14/2002 9:00 AM): Keith, that's why I'm in Vegas.

Frederick ( (1/14/2002 9:00 AM): Entered the room.

lvlady ( (1/14/2002 9:00 AM): Not bad for a Monday Rob.

Frederick ( (1/14/2002 9:00 AM): 'morning all (1/14/2002 9:01 AM): Ivlady: nice, so is one of our associates

Jim Malone ( (1/14/2002 9:01 AM): Mornin' Rob

John (1/14/2002 9:01 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:03 AM): Okay, so who/what's up first today?

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:03 AM): Aaron...anything I can help with?

Glenn ( (1/14/2002 9:04 AM): Entered the room.

Aaron Shannon - ( (1/14/2002 9:04 AM): Entered the room.

Jonathan Cohen ( (1/14/2002 9:05 AM): Entered the room.

Jonathan Cohen ( (1/14/2002 9:05 AM): good morning all!

Ben Woodward ( (1/14/2002 9:05 AM): Entered the room.

Aaron Shannon - ( (1/14/2002 9:05 AM): that's a loaded question Rob :-) I have a lot I want to know, just know specific questions yet

Ben Woodward ( (1/14/2002 9:05 AM): Hiya, folks...

Tamra ( (1/14/2002 9:05 AM): Rob, I have a branding question about a small winery in Oregon.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:06 AM): Okay, then it's open season....anyone want to take a shot?

Aaron Shannon - ( (1/14/2002 9:06 AM): I mean no specific questions

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:06 AM): Okay, Tamra...

Tamra ( (1/14/2002 9:07 AM): founded by my father in law in '83, it started out having a lot of the founders personality. Then they hired a strong winemaker, and the personality became a little...bland. Now the winemaker is leaving. What should they do (first steps) to re-brand themselves?

Ken McArthur - (1/14/2002 9:07 AM): Entered the room.

Sonzy( (1/14/2002 9:07 AM): Entered the room.

Tamra ( (1/14/2002 9:08 AM): Maybe bland isn't the right word...mixed up? No overriding theme/passion in marketing materials, so you couldn't really find a brand in there.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:08 AM): Wow, Tamra...this is exactly the point I discussed in today's FrankelTips! What timing!

Ken McArthur - (1/14/2002 9:09 AM): Hi Rob and crew - Your website was down at least out here in the east.. glad I made it in

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:09 AM): Which site Ken?

Tamra ( (1/14/2002 9:09 AM): Oh yeah, Dave and Wendys! (it's open in another window)

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:09 AM): Tamra, your father in law blew it when he deviated the first time. The brand should have been intact -- the winemaker should have been presented as an adjunct to that brand, not supplanting it.

Ken McArthur - (1/14/2002 9:09 AM): Rob - Tried for 8 minutes before it would find it

Peter Clough( (1/14/2002 9:10 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:10 AM): Must be a backbone issue, Ken. Tamra, how long was the winemaker there?

Tamra ( (1/14/2002 9:11 AM): I agree...but the winemaker was aggressive and ambitious, became president as well as winemaker. She worked there at least 5 years, maybe as long as 10 years.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:11 AM): Well, believe it or not, Tamra, this is a brand issue again...only probably not the most obvious one. In this case, your father in-law's brand abdicated its most important quality: leadership.

Tamra ( (1/14/2002 9:12 AM): The web site's at -- they're really well known in the industry, well respected.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:12 AM): If the brand and its founder really followed Frankel's 6th law, they would have remembered that a brand's job is to lead, not follow. If you don't lead, they won't follow, and the inmates run the asylum.

Tamra ( (1/14/2002 9:13 AM): Yeah, my husband's main complaint is that Rex Hill stopped innovating -- they stopped being the one in front.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:13 AM): If your in-law owned the company, he should have understood that -- and realized that no one person -- even the Branded icon -- is more important than the brand itself. You can see what happens if you allow that to occur

Tamra ( (1/14/2002 9:13 AM): That ties in with the leading part.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:14 AM): Not necessarily, Tamra. Innovation is good and he's right about that. But don't think that one issue is 100% to blame. A strong brand is what perpetuates the business even without innovation.

katsuey@KatsueyDesignWorks (1/14/2002 9:14 AM): Entered the room. (1/14/2002 9:14 AM): Just curious Rob, but this is along the lines you and Tamra are talking about. What would a company like Wendy's do now that their "leader" Dave Thomas is gone?

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:14 AM): Rexhill has to commit to a brand strategy -- and then recruit its team players from there. That's how you lead them. That's how you get better employees, too.

lvlady ( (1/14/2002 9:14 AM): But, I notice that you use your own name as a brand. I am wondering about doing that with a new design site I am putting together. I have always been Gloria's Designs and now I wonder what to do about the domain name for instance.

Tamra ( (1/14/2002 9:15 AM): So, Paul needs to take the brand back from Lynn (the winemaker). Not Lynn's winery, but back to being Rex Hill.

Del (1/14/2002 9:15 AM): Keith, at least out here in California, they're already running a new non-Dave ad spot.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:15 AM): Keith, I'm betting that Wendy's is smarting form painting itself into a corner and will rapidly change over to a more traditional approach. That's one way. The other is that they'll find another, younger charismatic person to fill his shoes.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:16 AM): Absolutely, Tamra -- should never have been given over to her in the first place.

Aaron Shannon - ( (1/14/2002 9:16 AM): I noticed a new Wendy's commercial tomorrow, new signature voice and no Dave images, just the brand name image

Peter Clough( (1/14/2002 9:16 AM): Wendy's also ran a tribute ad - very nicely done, they have been preparing for this for years.

Jim Malone ( (1/14/2002 9:16 AM): Rob like Redenbacher?

Aaron Shannon - ( (1/14/2002 9:16 AM): errr yesterday.....

Tamra ( (1/14/2002 9:17 AM): Paul is much older than Lynn, so in Rex Hill's case the younger charismatic person is leaving!

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:17 AM): Well, there you have it. And given that Dave took such a strong leadership role previously, I'm thinking that his sub-managers are drones who lack his vision or charisma or care, for that matter. (1/14/2002 9:17 AM): I haven't caught any of those new ads (tivo does that sometimes)

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:18 AM): Tamra, she's leaving because she's leaving -- probably has her own agenda. Your in-law needs to establish a brand that can accommodate changes in personnel while still maintaining brand integrity.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:19 AM): Jim, Redenbacher did face the same issue. Heck, they're even animating Colonel Sanders and he's been dead for 30 years.

Del (1/14/2002 9:19 AM): A new fast food ad is running, and cracks me up...I can remember the creative (yeah!) but not the brand/tradename. (boo!) It ends with a catchphrase something like "Because chickens don't have nuggets"

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:19 AM): Point is that you have to be really careful with your Branded Icons, or they become the brand. And that's not good. With one exception.....

Jim Malone ( (1/14/2002 9:20 AM): Redenbacher and The Chicken Guy

Jim Malone ( (1/14/2002 9:20 AM): Perdue

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:20 AM): Del, that campaign was taken from an old Jay Leno routine about 20 years ago....

Tamra ( (1/14/2002 9:20 AM): I'm hoping they can do that...but her stamp is on everything. When the winery first started, it was very much Paul's place, now it's Lynn's. Rex Hill has some good things going for them (nice location, great wine) but I think their marketing is lackluster.

lvlady ( (1/14/2002 9:20 AM): So, then in establishing a new business, stay away from a personality branding? Don't use the personal name in the domain name for starters?

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:20 AM): No, it's Carl's Junior.

Del (1/14/2002 9:21 AM): Rob: Well it got me laughing. But ZERO brand name recollection.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:21 AM): Frank Perdue was a great icon because he represented the brand: "It takes a tough man to make a tender chicken."

Weber (1/14/2002 9:21 AM): Purdue seemed to pull off a change pretty good Father to Son

Jim Malone ( (1/14/2002 9:21 AM): besides the fact he resembled some of them

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:22 AM): LVlady, I said with one exception, and that would be personal branding. In my case, Rob Frankel is the guy people want to buy, so that's why the Branded Icon is Rob. In i-legions, however, there will be other Branded Icons that represent other brands.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:22 AM): Jim, you're a cruel cruel man

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:22 AM): Weber, we don't see his stuff in this part of the country

Jim Malone ( (1/14/2002 9:22 AM): Perdue would also show you that just because of a passing that the Brand could survive if really strong enough

Frederick ( (1/14/2002 9:22 AM): Seems we got a bit off the mark! What's Rob's advice for Tamra?

Tamra ( (1/14/2002 9:23 AM): Rob will probably tell me I should have given my father in law his book for Xmas!

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:24 AM): Okay back to the winery: it seems that Tamra's in law blew it by not sticking with -- or never creating -- a strong brand, compelling enough to lead both internally and externally. By allowing the new person to usurp the brand, he allowed her to use his platform to further her own agenda, not the brand's.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:24 AM): No, Tamra, he should have hired me for Christmas!

Frederick ( (1/14/2002 9:25 AM): But that's done (or not done) Now what?

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:25 AM): Think about it Tamra: he could have made the brand so valuable as to "have master winemakers competing for the top spot", etc.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:25 AM): Frederick, now he has to re-structure the brand so that he can go forward and guard against this happening again.

Tamra ( (1/14/2002 9:25 AM): Ohhhh....I like that master winemakers stuff. He could have done that, that's for sure.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:26 AM): The goal would have been to get a story in the wine trade about how winemakers take pay cuts to come work for him....

Frederick ( (1/14/2002 9:26 AM): How 'restructure'? Start over?

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:26 AM): Did I mention the toll free telephone number Tamra???

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:27 AM): Not completely over, Fred. This is what I do for a lot of clients: take an inventory of what to salvage, what to re-package and what to invent, in order to create and implement a strong Big Time Brand

Tamra ( (1/14/2002 9:28 AM): Hmmm...that's a passionate idea (the pay cuts). I (personally) think they need more passion in their marketing, because wine drinkers tend to be very passionate about their wines. And what about that toll-free number?

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:28 AM): Tamra's in law is a perfect case for this kind of thing. In fact, this is exactly why I built, no kidding.

Del (1/14/2002 9:28 AM): Tamra: National distribution or regional (WA, OR, CA)? Limited case count?

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:28 AM): Oh, the toll free number? 1-888-ROBFRANKEL -- tee hee.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:29 AM): BTW, anyone else have an issue? Jump in, if you do, otherwise we'll keep going.....

Tamra ( (1/14/2002 9:30 AM): Del, national (through resellers), but with heavy NW sales. Lots of good tie-ins to restaurants. They're in Draeger's in California. (Rob, I'll pass that number on to Paul, and we'll see what happens.)

the web newsroom @ (1/14/2002 9:31 AM): Entered the room.

Jonathan Cohen ( (1/14/2002 9:31 AM): Tamra: A colleague of mine is putting together an interesting loyalty/incentive program for a winery in the Okanagan B.C. region

Jim Malone ( (1/14/2002 9:32 AM): Rob, we have small(for now) Distribution Center9Public) without a brand. Any suggestions to start?

scameron (1/14/2002 9:32 AM): Entered the room.

Tamra ( (1/14/2002 9:32 AM): Jonathan -- tell me more! (off-line is OK --

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:32 AM): Jonathan, did Mary Benson get in touch with you? She was looking for you.....

Aaron Shannon - ( (1/14/2002 9:32 AM): great domain name Jonathan

Jonathan Cohen ( (1/14/2002 9:32 AM): (Tamra - I will!)

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:32 AM): What's the business, Jim?

Jim Malone ( (1/14/2002 9:33 AM): General warehousing and Distribution- Public

Jonathan Cohen ( (1/14/2002 9:33 AM): (thanks Aaron :) )

Jim Malone ( (1/14/2002 9:33 AM): heavy in industrial paper besides other things

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:35 AM): Jim any business, whether B2B or B2C, MUST have a strong brand in this environment. And even though they may not want to believe it, they need strong branded programs to ensure continuity.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:36 AM): There's no doubt that A. it's far more competitive out there. B. Everyone is moving online C. The tools to propagate brand identity -- and revenue -- are all headed this way D. It's the most economical and efficient way to go

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:37 AM): And I can tell you without qualification that I have NVER met a business that didn't require a strong brand. it's just a fact of business.

scameron (1/14/2002 9:37 AM): How do you brand on a limited budget ?

Jim Malone ( (1/14/2002 9:37 AM): being new to this type of promo, I am believing

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:38 AM): If you intend to get money from people, you simply have got to develop and communicate a compelling reason for them to do so.

Jim Malone ( (1/14/2002 9:38 AM): Problem was I relied on a few other to handle this and have realized the mistake

Jim Malone ( (1/14/2002 9:39 AM): over the last few weeks in here I have seen the light

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:39 AM): SCameron, it begins with a solid brand. That's the hardest part. that's the part that most business people refuse to accept. There's no short cut here. It's funny, because people will give a lawyer a $10K retainer -- and he COSTS money!!!

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:40 AM): It's human nature NOT to invest in pro-active, revenue-generating disciplines.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:40 AM): Anyway, you'd be amazed at what happens when you begin with a strong brand: much of the ads, PR, programs, products, values begin to create themselves.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:41 AM): As you know, one of my big things is Branded Community -- and one of the reasons why is that you will never get better, more accurate marketing data from users than with that community. If you're really good, they take ownership of that brand and care for it.

Jim Malone ( (1/14/2002 9:42 AM): over the last few weeks in here I have seen the light

scameron (1/14/2002 9:42 AM): I need to get a real logo any suggestions ?

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:42 AM): Another thing (sort of what I referenced earlier) is that we have all be raised to FOLLOW, instead of lead. Leading takes a huge emotional adjustment. Sometimes people need a guy like me to show them how to lead.

Jonathan Cohen ( (1/14/2002 9:43 AM): scameron - as a side note, light text on a black background is *very* hard to read

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:43 AM): What -- a blinking chili pepper doesn't do it for you? Cute little guy....

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:44 AM): You could use a logo, Cameron, but I submit to you that your home page needs -- no pun intended -- some warming up. It's very anonymous

Tamra ( (1/14/2002 9:44 AM): Maybe the chili pepper's head should bob...oh, wait, that's been done (hee-hee).

Frederick ( (1/14/2002 9:44 AM): How 'restructure'? Start over?

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:44 AM): Hey, that's bordering on trademark infringement!

Frederick ( (1/14/2002 9:44 AM): How 'restructure'? Start over?

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:45 AM): Fred, that was an error, right? I answered that earlier... (1/14/2002 9:45 AM): Entered the room.

Tamra ( (1/14/2002 9:45 AM): Black isn't the best background color for a food site -- doesn't encourage hunger.

Morica (1/14/2002 9:45 AM): Entered the room.

Yes My screen went blank and I reloaded (1/14/2002 9:45 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:45 AM): It's a nice URL, Cameron. I take it you did this yourself.

Yes My screen went blank and I reloaded (1/14/2002 9:46 AM): Drat!

scameron (1/14/2002 9:46 AM): I don't like my main page, but it ranks high on the engines

Aaron Shannon - ( (1/14/2002 9:46 AM): Rob are comments about your convo welcome?

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:46 AM): Anyone else? Fred, log out and log back on.

Frederick ( (1/14/2002 9:46 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:46 AM): Aaron, anything goes here....

Justice (1/14/2002 9:46 AM): Entered the room.

Frederick ( (1/14/2002 9:46 AM): I'm back!

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:46 AM): ...just don't hit me where the bruises will show.

Justice (1/14/2002 9:47 AM): Scameron: The reason it's ranking high more likely has to do with page titles, meta tags and keyword density, not design.

Tamra ( (1/14/2002 9:47 AM): (scameron: that's because it's all text. You can change the colors without loosing your rank.)

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:47 AM): Cameron, it ranks high because it's simple HTML. Nice. I also like the URL name.

Aaron Shannon - ( (1/14/2002 9:47 AM): I notice that many pieces of advice about what a site does, animations, logos etc, but I don't hear much big picture

Jonathan Cohen ( (1/14/2002 9:48 AM): (and break the text into paragraphs for better readability)

Morica (1/14/2002 9:48 AM): Rob - banner vs. text link advertising - which is more effective these days?

Aaron Shannon - ( (1/14/2002 9:48 AM): how to increase sales, etc

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:49 AM): Aaron? You mean in this forum? All I do here is answer questions in real time. Big picture stuff gets answered in FrankelTips, if people ask questions. That's pretty much what drives forums like this.

Aaron Shannon - ( (1/14/2002 9:50 AM): no in general, those are the things that most people think of...IBM had great commercials about flaming logos and site planning

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:50 AM): Morica, it depends: On my site, we get an AVERAGE click through rate of 4.5%. That's unheard of, because the industry average is 1/4%. But the reason why it works is that it's a finely niched service, so the ads are highly targeted.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:51 AM): Morica, remember that I believe it's the brand that drives quality traffic, so links and banners take second place in my book. I prefer to rely on users referring highly qualified prospects to the site.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:52 AM): That having been said, well-placed links do work. Again, with PillowMail, we get a decent amount of traffic from -- but that's because our links are placed in "Love" and "Honeymoon/Wedding" content.

Justice (1/14/2002 9:52 AM): Rob: There's that all-important word: NICHE!

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:52 AM): I also think that because links tends to get placed in relevant content -- as opposed to slapping up a banner in general rotation -- they're taken more credibly than banners.

Tamra ( (1/14/2002 9:52 AM): Aaron: I get in a lot of discussions with potential clients about flaming logos and such *because* they don't think big picture. When I ask "what do you want your site to do for your business" I just get blank looks 95% of the time. So, I talk about flaming logos -- that doesn't mean I'm not *thinking* about the big picture, though.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:53 AM): (EIGHT MINUTE WARNING)

Morica (1/14/2002 9:53 AM): Thanks Rob :)

Jonathan Cohen ( (1/14/2002 9:54 AM): good point, Tamra - your question 'what do you want your site to do for your business' will dictate every aspect of it, from navigation (especially!) to graphics and logo

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:54 AM): Aaron, again, the big picture is the brand -- it simply doesn't get any bigger than that. But as I say so often, branding is THE most misunderstood concept in all of marketing. The brand belongs in the business plan, that's how basic and fundamentally important it is.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:54 AM): NP, Morica. Thanks for asking!

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:56 AM): And as hard as it is to believe, 99% of the clients I talk to have NO idea of how important or how powerful it is -- until we get into a working session. Then the proverbial light goes on!

John Charlesworth ( - Professional Web Tracking) (1/14/2002 9:56 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:57 AM): It's sort of like being a psychiatrist and after a session, the patient goes, "So THAT'S why I eat my pillow every night! Thanks, Doc!" once that stuff gets straightened out, everything -- including revenue strategies and tactics -- become far more apparent.

Morica (1/14/2002 9:58 AM): Thanks Rob :)

Morica (1/14/2002 9:59 AM): Morica (

Morica (1/14/2002 9:59 AM): argh - chat froze

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 9:59 AM): (ONE MINUTE) (1/14/2002 10:00 AM): Hi Rob. This is kind of a long winded question but here goes. Ok, we just recently launched a new program and it seems to be doing well with new users, however our current members don't seem to be giving a good response rate. We've sent out several newsletters and these are totally targeted...but there not as effective...any ideas why?

Aaron Shannon - ( (1/14/2002 10:00 AM): Thanks Rob, see you next week.

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 10:00 AM): Okay, folks, hope the trip to the winery and the salsa store was helpful...I gotta run, but feel free to hang out as long as you wish. I'll see you online!

Jonathan Cohen ( (1/14/2002 10:00 AM): thanks Rob - have a great week, everyone!

Rob Frankel ( (1/14/2002 10:00 AM): Planet, send me an e-mail! I gotta run now1

Frederick ( (1/14/2002 10:00 AM): Thanks Rob, everyone - have fun!

John Charlesworth ( - Professional Web Tracking) (1/14/2002 10:00 AM): See ya!

Morica (1/14/2002 10:00 AM): Thanks Rob - Take care!

Jim Malone ( (1/14/2002 10:01 AM): thanks rob

Tamra ( (1/14/2002 10:01 AM): Thanks Rob. Very helpful stuff today. See you all next week!

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