Transcript of Frankel's Free Clinic February 19, 2001

RobFrankel ( (2/19/2001 9:00 AM): Okie doke, I'm's a holiday in the USA, so things may be a bit slow....

SRamon (2/19/2001 9:00 AM): Hi, I would like to know how to set up a web to accept paid advertising, promotions and take advantage of unused space. I am talking about an on-line supermarket so, I am sure that many providers will be interested in use this spaces for advertising.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:01 AM): Entered the room.

SRamon (2/19/2001 9:02 AM): I need to draw a document, where can I find a template or at least a description of steps to follow

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:02 AM): Wow, that's a pretty tall order. How is this going to be different from a "mall"?

JohnJ (2/19/2001 9:02 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:03 AM): And will you vendors be specializing in anything?

SRamon (2/19/2001 9:03 AM): Do you know any interesting link? right now, I have no idea about how to start.. prices...

SRamon (2/19/2001 9:04 AM): I am talking about an online supermarket, similar to webvan, peapod etc..

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:05 AM): SRamon, I'm not sure you can even begin to think about prices until you have a proper structure in place. You should know that most if not all malls do not make money. It's not a good revenue model.

JohnJ (2/19/2001 9:05 AM): Rob - why do you think the small business hasn't yet embraced ebusiness?

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:05 AM): And both webvan and peapod are in deep financial trouble.

SRamon (2/19/2001 9:05 AM): well, this "e-mall" is already making money, it has benefits..

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:06 AM): John, small business IS embracing e-business. It's just that the hacks out there are giving them bad solutions, so they're not as quick on the uptake.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:06 AM): At what scale, SRamon? Are you in start up mode or have you already scaled out?

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:07 AM): JohnJ, the proof is in our FrankelBiz community. Ask anyone on the list and they'll tell you how quick they are to embrace e-biz -- if and when it makes sense to them.

SRamon (2/19/2001 9:07 AM): I've heard about,, anything else?

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:08 AM): Remember that small business doesn't spend other people's money -- they use their own. So they're especially careful to look before they leap.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:08 AM): SRamon, those are ad serving companies. Not e-malls.

SRamon (2/19/2001 9:08 AM): We have been working since 1999, but now we are upgrading all the system, implementing ATG Dynao, Teamsite etc..

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:08 AM): And they're all in trouble, because they can't figure out how to get users to click though at decent rates.

SRamon (2/19/2001 9:09 AM): I think I didn't express myself correctly

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:09 AM): SRamon, what's your URL?

JohnJ (2/19/2001 9:09 AM): Great perspective - we've really struggled with long sales cycles convincing sme's to get on board - and when they do, it's invariably at a very low cost.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:10 AM): John, you can get them to buy big, I kid you not. I sell my tapes -- $495 a set -- to incredibly low scale businesses.

SRamon (2/19/2001 9:10 AM): I think I didn't express myself correctly I need to know how to take advantage of some "dead spaces" within our website, I am sure we can sell or hire them, isn't it? we are, in Spanish

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:10 AM): If you can convince them of the value -- and that's the brand thing again -- they will buy.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:11 AM): Okay, SRamon, now I get it. Loading your site....

JohnJ (2/19/2001 9:12 AM): yes - for a start-up, convincing companies of value has been a challenge - we are slowly building up testimonials

SRamon (2/19/2001 9:12 AM): do you understand Spanish?

thawk (2/19/2001 9:12 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:12 AM): John, testimonials are fine, but they can't take the place of the brand. Unfortunately, testimonials often are viewed skeptically.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:13 AM): Poquito.

JohnJ (2/19/2001 9:14 AM): Sorry Frank - I don't understand - isn't brand ultimately building success upon success and growing momentum from there?

michael kimsal ( (2/19/2001 9:14 AM): Entered the room.

thawk (2/19/2001 9:14 AM): Hi Rob, have you heard any complaints about ?

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:14 AM): Entered the room.

Del (2/19/2001 9:15 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:15 AM): SRamon, from what I can see, your best bets most likely would be allocating promotional programs to the dead spaces. Major brands are always promoting coupons, sweepstakes and that kind of thing. They'd welcome the additional space.

SRamon (2/19/2001 9:15 AM): remember that we are changing it, it old, we'll launch a new site within 3 months. I am in charge of writing a commercial exploitation plan, but I don't know how to start.. any help?

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:15 AM): No John, it isn't. Hold that thought. Let me finish up with SRamon.

JohnJ (2/19/2001 9:16 AM): No problem.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:17 AM): John, a Big Time Brand bolts right out of the box. People fall for it right away and then they evangelize that brand, which promotes growth.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:17 AM): Thawk, you're not the pro-skater are you?

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:18 AM): SRamon, you could try selling you excess space, but brokers would rob you of any profitability. That's why I'd recommend approaching your existing clients and make you site an even better value for them. Get them to increase their investment into your s

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:19 AM): Entered the room.

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:19 AM): Hi Rob this is Mandy.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:19 AM): Thawk, EVERYONE complains about all the online flower merchants. They're big on promises and low on delivery. But no, I haven't heard anything specifically about

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:19 AM): Hi Mandy.

SRamon (2/19/2001 9:20 AM): ok, thanks.. last, any website talking about this?

JohnJ (2/19/2001 9:20 AM): During the 80's, I was a stockbroker and I sold based on hype and promotion - are you referring to this kind of branding? I don't mean hype in a negative way -

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:20 AM): may I ask you a question when you are finished w Thawk?

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:21 AM): SRamon, I can't recommend anyone in this space, but I would sooner talk to webvan and peapod before I talked to the ad servers.

thawk (2/19/2001 9:21 AM): Well, I had order flowers with them that were never sent but I was billed for them $80.00 also sent them several emails and phone call never returned. I have done several projects with several FrankelBee and have enjoyed working with them.

SRamon (2/19/2001 9:21 AM): ok, thanks and good luck from Barcelona!

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:22 AM): John, it's wholly different online. Exactly the opposite of what you're used to. --- especially with small businesses. Credibility and non-rational resonance matter most.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:22 AM): You too, SRamon! I love Barcelona.

Del (2/19/2001 9:22 AM): Rob: When you're researching your update to "Revenge", take a look at Emotion Marketing by Scott Robinette. Some good stuff that fits in well with your work.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:23 AM): Thawk, wish I could help, but even when I sent flowers using a FrankelBee, he was great about everything -- but the shipping companies beheaded about half of the roses that were sent.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:24 AM): Mandy, what were you going to ask?

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:24 AM): what is the best way to launch an online "BIG Time Brand" when you are taking a product out of the beta stage? and ready to launch it into the commercial one? this is a strictly online business that I am talking about.

JohnJ (2/19/2001 9:25 AM): I seemed to have missed this point entirely - I realize that this is a difficult way to talk, but how does one build credibility & non-rational resonance?

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:25 AM): Funny you should ask. We're doing that exact thing right now with an online service.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:25 AM): The first thing you want to do is to test it out mercilessly. Really hammer on it hard.

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:25 AM): please tell me more

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:26 AM): John, have you read my book or listened to the tapes?

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:26 AM): in beta right?

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:26 AM): and then what is it recommended?

JohnJ (2/19/2001 9:26 AM): Rob - I haven't - I'm very new to this forum.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:27 AM): Mandy: then we purchased a list (they're going for cheap these days) from a brand-compatible site. we got something like 8,000 names, which were purged and cleaned and ended up as something like 4,000 names.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:27 AM): John, no kidding, buy the book. (Click the banner below) I kid you not, it will save you tons of money and time. And it works.

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:28 AM): and you sent out a generic e-mail? to ask for people to come and test or to promote your service? and where did you purchase the list form?

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:28 AM): what is a brand-compatible site?

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:28 AM): Mandy: Then we had a problem -- how to contact these people and not SPAM them.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:28 AM): Brand compatible = similar but not competitive with your own.

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:28 AM): yes exactly? my thoughts exactly? you need to get their permission but HOW?

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:29 AM): So we leveraged the list by sending out an e-mail referencing the host who sold us the list and then asked their permission to send them the announcement when we were ready to launch.

Del (2/19/2001 9:30 AM): JohnJ: Saw a sentence you wrote earlier- " does one build credibility & non-rational resonance?" Of the latter portion of the sentence, are you speaking of an emotional connection?

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:30 AM): can you offer some examples of a "brand-compatible" site? that would have such a list for sale?

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:30 AM): Of course, we still got a bunch of hotheads who accused us of spam, and because we included specific instructions that told them how to be removed, we had very few angry people. A number of people opted out, which we removed.

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:30 AM): what kind of response did you get from this Rob?

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:31 AM): When the site was ready, we sent out the announcement.

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:31 AM): did you organize the "opt in" or "opt out" portion yourselves? or your sourced this out? to someone like yesmail?

JohnJ (2/19/2001 9:31 AM): Del - I was referring to a comment that Rob had made earlier - I actually don't know what "non-rational resonance" is?

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:32 AM): Mandy: go to sites that are in the same market as you are, but that don't compete directly with you.

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:32 AM): and just ask them if they have a list for sale?

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:32 AM): John: Non-rational means the stuff they can't justify with graphs, charts, numbers and ledgers. This is the stuff that brands are made of. This stuff resonates with end users.

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:33 AM): how many sites did you have to contact before one was willing to sell you a list of this nature Rob? (out of curiosity?)

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:33 AM): Mandy: we did the whole thing in-house. No big deal. Tracked everything with a simple Excel data sheet.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:33 AM): Mandy: one. We bought one from a site that I knew.

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:34 AM): For everyone who has not read Rob's book! The Revenge of brand X - it is a cluster of diamonds in my opinion, in helping one understand what a brand truly is!

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:34 AM): John, have you ever used a vendor simply because you preferred working with them instead of their cheaper competition?

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:34 AM): I see so you bought from a site you had personal connections with! I understand.

Del (2/19/2001 9:35 AM): I liked "Revenge" enough to get me to read 3-4 business books a week. It's a solid foundation. :-)

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:35 AM): Mandy: We actually paid 10¢ per e-mail address -- and got the data file. Great deal.

JohnJ (2/19/2001 9:35 AM): Yes I have Rob - but it's usually after an initial positive business experience.

Del (2/19/2001 9:35 AM): ..except for the typos ;-)

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:35 AM): Rob what happens and what do you advise a client who does not have such connections w a "brand compatible" site? how should they "cold" approach a site like this? for the sale of the list?

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:36 AM): sorry about those Del.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:36 AM): Thanks, Mandy & Del. I wrote the book to give people a head start

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:36 AM): Del is correct. Next book will have better proofreaders....Yeesh!

JohnJ (2/19/2001 9:36 AM): Rob - we have selling the exact opposite way - and not with a lot of success I might add.

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:36 AM): what response did you get from sending out the list? form the total number of people on the mailing I mean?

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:37 AM): John, I kid you not -- especially online, the brand is critical. If you read the first chapter and nothing else, you'll understand why.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:38 AM): Mandy, not as great as we had hoped. The response was much better from the second mail list we put together.

Del (2/19/2001 9:38 AM): Rob: I think if a small company took your book on branding and Emotion Marketing by Robinette, you have a KILLER system.

JohnJ (2/19/2001 9:38 AM): I'm certainly going to purchase and read on - I will look forward to future discussions.

Arik Schenkler (2/19/2001 9:38 AM): Entered the room.

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:38 AM): and the second mailing list was from the same source?

JohnJ (2/19/2001 9:39 AM): Unfortunately I have to leave - next week same time?

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:40 AM): Nope. The second mailing was gathered from psychographic sources: people from various social lists and personal lists that fit our psychographic model.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:40 AM): John, we're here every Monday 9 AM Pacific.

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:40 AM): In your book you are very much against , even from a small business point of view, to "produce your own" Big Time Brand message? and all that goes with it?....but how does one small buss leverage the expense and can one small buss can have a good shot at it or One should NOT even try it?

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:40 AM): Thank you ROB!:)

Del (2/19/2001 9:40 AM): Rob: BTW- If you need an additional proofreader (who is actually proficient in layout and design: PageMaker/Quark/etc)...Let me know. (I authored 3 books and ran into similar errors during the production of the first.

JohnJ (2/19/2001 9:41 AM): Great - bye for now everyone.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:41 AM): Mandy, VERY few companies have devised their own Big Time Brand, mainly because they're -- understandably -- too involved with their own agenda to realistically view things from their end users' perspective.

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:42 AM): I understand! Thank you and looking forward for later today :) have a lovely day

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:42 AM): I understand! Thank you and looking forward for later today :) have a lovely day

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:43 AM): The trick is to start with a brand and benefit from it from Day One. I often structure rates for small businesses to help them out.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:43 AM): See you and the class later tonight!

Del (2/19/2001 9:43 AM): Doing a seminar for them, Rob?

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:44 AM): YES looking forward!

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:44 AM): Yes, Del, I was delighted to find out that Mandy's class at Marlboro college in Vermont uses my book for their marketing class.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:45 AM): Mandy invited me to chat with their class.

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:45 AM): and we delighted and honored Rob

Del (2/19/2001 9:45 AM): You flying out there today, or logging in from thereabouts already?

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:45 AM): <--- Blushing

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:46 AM): Logging in. Schedule and budgets didn't permit the airplane thing.

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:47 AM): Thank you and we'll see you tonight !

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:48 AM): Anyone else? This has been a multi-track session today!

Del (2/19/2001 9:48 AM): From your perspective, is a website that is store (and known to be a store) for a particular industry more or less successful than a site branded as the solution for the industry and promotes knowledge bases (articles) in addition to their products?

Del (2/19/2001 9:49 AM): An eCommerce location versus a destination site, I guess.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:50 AM): Gee, Del, it seems to me that a hugely successful eCommerce location is going to be both. After all, you're not leasing real estate to host a terrestrial library.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:51 AM): I always favor doing both: because when people use your space as a resource, they build that trust that transfers over to your e-commerce operation.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:51 AM): (TEN MINUTE WARNING)

Del (2/19/2001 9:51 AM): Agreed.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:51 AM): This is why I personally maintain a huge archive or all the articles I have ever written and make them available for free. And I advise clients to do the same.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:53 AM): Incidentally, this goes way beyond simple text. I had one client that sold input devices, like keyboards. Those types of components require lots of technical drawings. I recommended that they make the basic drawings free for the download to customers a

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:53 AM): what part of the country are you in today Rob?

Del (2/19/2001 9:54 AM): Most definitely....Who was it, I think Cisco did something similar.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:54 AM): You gotta figure that if they start out with my client's drawings, it makes it easier for my client to process and bid the job. They also are helping the prospects even before they become clients, and that's a great first impression.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:54 AM): Mandy: Home in Los Angeles.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:54 AM): Del, it make good business sense to do it that way. Instead of their former mindset, which was, "Hey, we charge money to do drawings!"

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:55 AM): Again, it's part of seeing the bigger picture, the total job, instead of looking at one tiny fee.

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:55 AM): how soon after this chat is over do you have the archived log of this chat available Rob? so I can link it to my website?

Del (2/19/2001 9:55 AM): I kept this from one of the books I read:

Del (2/19/2001 9:55 AM): I don't know who you are.

Del (2/19/2001 9:55 AM): I don't know your company.

Del (2/19/2001 9:56 AM): I don't know your company's product.

Del (2/19/2001 9:56 AM): I don't know your company's customers.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:56 AM): Mandy. Sometime later today.

Del (2/19/2001 9:56 AM): I don't know your company's record.

Del (2/19/2001 9:56 AM): I don't know your company's reputation.

Del (2/19/2001 9:56 AM): What were you trying to sell me again?!

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:56 AM): thanks

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:57 AM): Del, that is Soooooooooo true!

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:57 AM): (TWO MINUTES)

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:57 AM): what business are you running Del? self employed or an employee? you have a lot of good sense.

Del (2/19/2001 9:58 AM): And to follow your branding messages..."Emotion marketing is the enterprising pursuit of a sustainable connection that makes customers feel so valued and cared for that they'll go out of their way to be loyal"

Del (2/19/2001 9:59 AM): Evangelism at it's finest.

Del (2/19/2001 9:59 AM): Mandy: I produce/sell products for the mortgage lending industry.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:59 AM): Yeah, I try to steer clear of the use of the word "emotional" these days. People think of crying at a Hallmark greeting card. That's why I use "non-rational".

mandyt (2/19/2001 9:59 AM): Del you are joking right?

Del (2/19/2001 9:59 AM): Self-employed.

Rob Frankel ( (2/19/2001 9:59 AM): Okay, you guys, I've gotta run. But you are most welcome to continue as long as you want. You can also use this site to meet any time you like during the week. See you online!

mandyt (2/19/2001 10:00 AM): and what type of products or services does your co offer Del?

mandyt (2/19/2001 10:00 AM): See you later and thanks Rob

Del (2/19/2001 10:00 AM): Have a good week, Rob.

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