Transcript of Frankel's Free Clinic February 26, 2001

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:00 AM): Greetings!

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:01 AM): I am here, until 10 AM Pacific Time, if you need anything.

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:03 AM): Entered the room.

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:04 AM): Good Morning.

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:04 AM): Rob, I noticed the link to access this chat was broken on your site.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:04 AM): It is? What page?

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:04 AM):

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:05 AM): BTW, does anyone have any info on These guys have been pinging my site like crazy....

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:05 AM): The text link does not work but the button does.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:05 AM): Okay, marshal, Ill check it out

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:06 AM): What is the IP address?

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:06 AM): Whoa, the banner isn't loading, either...

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:08 AM): I don't have the IP number. Just shows up in the site logs

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:08 AM): But I did a lookup on Who IS and it's owned by Dave's Engine, which is based in the Bay Area. Some sort of new search engine.

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:09 AM): Hmm...

Del (2/26/2001 9:10 AM): Marshal: How useful is buying keywords on GOTO? I mean, what/who is the typical user of the service (not advertiser, but consumer)?

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:11 AM): Good question. This I want to hear, too.

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:11 AM): GoTo serves AOL, Netscape, Iwon and a few other search engines.

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:11 AM): A #1 spot on GoTo also gets you a #1 spot on most of those engines a well.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:11 AM): And a few metasearchers, too, no?

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:12 AM): Rob, True. (2/26/2001 9:12 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:12 AM): Interesting. But I still don't know how useful it is in terms of getting business. Every test I've done has made no difference -- at least in my own business.

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:13 AM): Del, so to answer your question... the typical user really runs a wide range...

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:13 AM): Rob,

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:13 AM): Marshal, you know what I do? I NEVER buy the #1 spot. I always settle for something like #4 or #5, which usually is about 25% of the cost of #1. What's the difference if they display ten results at a time?

Rafael Lopes( (2/26/2001 9:14 AM): Entered the room.

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:14 AM): The amount and quality of traffic that you receive from Goto and it's partners depends on your wording and how popular the terms are.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:14 AM): Hi Rafael. Jump in when you're ready. We always let the new people go first....

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:14 AM): The difference comes from the partners.

Del (2/26/2001 9:15 AM): Rob: I paid for getting listed in the Inktomi database ($20 yearly for ONE top level domain name). I skip the fee and still get near top billing on the sites serves (except their own site).

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:15 AM): Only the top 3 spots get displayed on the Goto partners.

Rafael Lopes( (2/26/2001 9:15 AM): thanks....glad to be here. will take a minute to catch up.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:15 AM): Yes, I just overhauled my descriptions this weekend in yet ANOTHER test.

Rafael Lopes( (2/26/2001 9:15 AM): do I have to take notes or will the chat transcript be available?

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:16 AM): the big question is whether buying your way to the top is really effective. Or do people see you as just another well-moneyed advertiser?

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:16 AM): Rob, Try making a bid for the #2 spot. It will make a difference.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:16 AM): Rafael, see that link up in the top frame? That's where all the transcripts are, back into 1998, I think.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:16 AM): Today's transcripts will be up later this after noon.

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:17 AM): I think it can be effective but it will depend on your market.

Rafael Lopes( (2/26/2001 9:17 AM): great. Thanks. (2/26/2001 9:17 AM): seems to me that buy your way to the top wont make a bit of difference unless you have meat to offer when they do arrive at your site

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:17 AM): Marshal. as long as we got you o the hot seat, what about Google?

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:17 AM): Google, in my opinion, is the best search engine on the net today.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:17 AM): Patti, Goto doesn't care about what's there; they only care that people click.

Rafael Lopes( (2/26/2001 9:18 AM): yes, what about Google...I understand they power many other searches as well...which ones?

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:18 AM): Exactly Patti. You've almost got to be selling something to make it worth your time.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:18 AM): I love Google, because at least last week, I was #1 for "branding" -- for free. (2/26/2001 9:18 AM): I know... however if you buy your way to the top and don't' offer meat.. you toss the money away don't' you

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:19 AM): Google has one of the fastest and most in-depth spider yet.

Del (2/26/2001 9:19 AM): still #1. :-)

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:19 AM): The funniest example of GOTO I ever saw was Declan Dunn demonstrating it at an event last year. He searched something like airlines and showed how #1 was bid for $5 .

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:20 AM): And in front of a whole audience, he clicked the link and said, "See? I just cost American Airlines five bucks!"

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:20 AM): The audience laughed. But it did show the questionable side of GOTO...

Del (2/26/2001 9:21 AM): I don't mind traffic to my site (and thankfully, I'm in the top 5 or 10 in most directories), but I prefer those visitors stemming from my print advertisements. :-)

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:21 AM): That brings up a good point Rob.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:22 AM): And that would be?...

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:22 AM): Before you start bidding on GoTo (or any other PPC engine) you need to figure out what CPV (cost per visitor) you can afford to pay.

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:22 AM): People get into trouble on Goto by getting into bidding wars.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:23 AM): I agree. And I only have ONE term I pay for: branding.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:23 AM): If I had to pay for "marketing" or anything else that was too generic, I'd be paying out big bucks.

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:24 AM): Rob, I would suggest that you also look into other less popular terms.

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:24 AM): Some of the real gold mines on Goto are the 2 and 3 word combo's related to your site.

Rafael Lopes( (2/26/2001 9:24 AM): I see how it works now....Rob you are coming up #6 this morning....other higher bids ahead of you (2/26/2001 9:25 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:25 AM): Marshal, I tested others and unfortunately, nothing else pulls. All the others -- at least those I've generated -- are too generic, which means others will pay more for them and I still won't get the business. Besides, they're off target.

Rafael Lopes( (2/26/2001 9:25 AM): On Goto...I entered Spanish Marketing and I see no bids coming back...does that mean that no one has bid that term yet? Maybe I will grab it

Frederick - (2/26/2001 9:25 AM): Entered the room. (2/26/2001 9:25 AM): Sorry, little late. Got a day job to pay the bills for now :( (2/26/2001 9:25 AM): Marshall, love the new URL :)!

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:26 AM): You are correct Rafael.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:26 AM): Yes, Rafael. I edited the words last weekend. I wanted to hit the #5 position, because I figure people will read all ten displayed on the first page.

Del (2/26/2001 9:27 AM): With Goto, is it necessary to buy the pluralization of a word or is it automatic?

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:27 AM): Thanks for your help Meehna!

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:27 AM): Del, I do NO other marketing other than web. No print. No broadcast. Just web, product, referrals and speaking gigs.

Rafael Lopes( (2/26/2001 9:27 AM): are you able to budget based on an amount you decide to invest? or will you be billed for whatever hits are made that month? (2/26/2001 9:27 AM): Of course! My biggest triumph will be your magnificent results.

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:27 AM): It should be automatic.

Del (2/26/2001 9:27 AM): Rob: And the web is precisely how I discovered you in Nov of last year.

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:28 AM): Rafael, You can deposit into your account. Once it is used up your listing goes offline.

Del (2/26/2001 9:28 AM): For my specific marketing niche however, I needed (and still need) to target my consumers in the industry rags they frequent.

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:28 AM): Meehna, True!

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:28 AM): Del, I have a sub-agenda. A point to prove. Not only do I have to generate business, I'm in it to show people that brand alone can build business.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:29 AM): Understood, Del. Every business has its own needs. There are no right and wrong answers here, each is a custom solution.

Rafael Lopes( (2/26/2001 9:30 AM): Does anyone know if the Spanish search engines like Yupi, starmedia, etc work the same way? Are there any pay for placement sites?

Del (2/26/2001 9:31 AM): I'd much prefer an online (search engine, metacrawler, database directory) advertising stream (cheap, cheap, cheap)...It would go in hand with the fact that 99% of my business is strictly handled via internet order placement. The remaining 1% is a faxed in order.

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:32 AM): Rafael, Most major search engine have regional versions. For example:

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:32 AM): Personally, I see the searches breaking down into two modes: PPC for big businesses who can afford it and FREE for lower level businesses (much like they are now)

Rafael Lopes( (2/26/2001 9:34 AM): what about keywords vs. keyword phrases...does one work better than the other? when using keywords and keyword phrases in meta tags, are their any special tricks to using one over the other? any limitations of size or length or quantity ?

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:34 AM): Frederick, you still here? Feel free to jump in any time.

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:34 AM): Rob, I agree but I think that PPC engines are still under developed.

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:35 AM): Goto still has problems with click spamming

Frederick - (2/26/2001 9:35 AM): Just trying to catch the drift. No special questions at the moment, thanks

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:35 AM): Marshal, you're the expert. Take it!

Del (2/26/2001 9:35 AM): Those tricky bastards and Looksmart changed the way searches are displayed...If it doesn't find the search in its own database, you have to click a link that will show you results from Inktomi (used to show both Looksmart and Inktomi results on the page).

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:35 AM): Until they get a more secure and accurate system for measuring clicks they will remain second to the free search engines.

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:36 AM): Rafael, I always try to go for phrases over words.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:36 AM): Okay, Frederick. I just didn't want you to think all we talk about are search engines. This just happens to be the first topic today.

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:36 AM): In your meta tags run your words separate by a space instead of a comma.

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:37 AM): This will allow the search engines to put together combinations that you probably have not thought of.

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:37 AM): Also don't over crowd your meta's. Less is more!

Rafael Lopes( (2/26/2001 9:38 AM): What is the best site or software tool to help me figure out what the top keywords or keyword phrases are that people are using to find my clients products? That way, I will know what keywords to bid on. I have used a couple free sites, but have not been happy with results.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:38 AM): Okay, if nobody else has any other questions, Marshal, what's the diff between "description" and "keywords"?

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:38 AM): How much is optimal?

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:38 AM): Rafael, I use Goto's tool:

Frederick - (2/26/2001 9:38 AM): If you want a new topic - Do you think SE are better for winning traffic and customers than links on other sites? (2/26/2001 9:39 AM): Entered the room.

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:39 AM): Not 100% accurate but the best picture I have found. (2/26/2001 9:39 AM): Frederick, let Marshall work with you. He is the wizard.

Rafael Lopes( (2/26/2001 9:39 AM): Also....many sites have totally Flash introductions (idex.htm) pages...with NO text. How can we make sure to place those pages high if there is no text for robots to go searching for? Are the meta tags enough or should I strongly recommend Flash nontext index pages?

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:40 AM): Rob, Descriptions are the text that come after the links in the search engines.

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:40 AM): Keywords are those people would use to find your site.

Rafael Lopes( (2/26/2001 9:40 AM): Sorry....what is 'SE' Frederick?

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:40 AM): Some but not all, search engine use your meta description as their description of your site.

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:41 AM): Others just pull random text from the page. (like Google)

Frederick - (2/26/2001 9:41 AM): Rafael - SE = search engines

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:41 AM): ACK! I can't understand why anyone would have a Flash page. They are almost always bypassed by visitors. And still considered a major annoyance. Any site that has "skip this intro" on the front must know that, otherwise they would never put it on the page.

Del (2/26/2001 9:41 AM): Rob: Forgive me...Keywords: Whips, chains, candle wax...Descriptions: "Rob Frankel's dungeon of pain where your discomfort is our pleasure."

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:41 AM): Frederick, you need both! Links work to your advantage 2 different ways...

Rafael Lopes( (2/26/2001 9:42 AM): That is what I have been telling my clients....glad to get some validation from the pros. Thanks Marshall, I completely agree.

Del (2/26/2001 9:42 AM): ;-)

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:42 AM): Rob, Well said!

Frederick - (2/26/2001 9:42 AM): IMO - Flash intro pages are technology taking precedence over sales/business/traffic

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:42 AM): Links bring visitors to your site from other web sites... PLUS...

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:43 AM): They increase your link popularity in the search engines. And many of the majors are giving more and more weight to link popularity.

GuyCook - (2/26/2001 9:44 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:44 AM): Del, I just write it like I see it! <G>

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:44 AM): Frederick, I would rather see sites run Flash as demos, don't force it down my throat as the first thing I see.. (2/26/2001 9:44 AM): the links need to be targeted though.. not just linking for the sake of linking

GuyCook - (2/26/2001 9:45 AM): Why not browser detect and have both? Flash and non Flash?

Rafael Lopes( (2/26/2001 9:45 AM): Now for my own company. I have a domain that I have been using. I also park and point which is my official company name. I find that my placement comes up higher and with better relevancy when I enter envien group instead of envien even though is much more popular (has many more links pointing to it). Should I stop using and change everything to envien group? I guess I just answered my own question but was not sure why it was working that way. Any thoughts?

Del (2/26/2001 9:45 AM): Rob: When you get ready for your second book (or revision), I'd love a shot at doing the cover (no charge of course). (2/26/2001 9:45 AM): Mind if we change the topic for a few moments?

Frederick - (2/26/2001 9:45 AM): Are there any branding consideration re: linking with other sites?

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:45 AM): Go for it Meehna.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:46 AM): I'll keep you in mind, Del.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:46 AM): Frederick, I, for one, do not believe in reciprocal linking. (2/26/2001 9:46 AM): I'm trying to build my business so I can be self supporting, but how can I avoid a conflict of interest?

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:47 AM): My feeling is that if you work as hard as you do to get people to your site, you should NOT make it easy for them to leave, unless they know where they want to go.

Frederick - (2/26/2001 9:47 AM): Neither do I, Rob, but many times, if you don't reciprocate they won't link

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:47 AM): Meehna, depends what's conflicting. (2/26/2001 9:47 AM): I'm working @ an ad agency that does internet stuff.

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:48 AM): Rob, there are other ways to increase link popularity besides link exchanges... Affiliate programs are one...

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:49 AM): Frederick: screw 'em. If your stuff is better, you don't need them. Again, this is my sub-agenda at work. I think I have maybe three reciprocal links buried somewhere on my site. everything else is built out of the fact that people have linked back to me: articles, archives, reprints, etc.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:49 AM): Meehna, what's the conflict? (2/26/2001 9:49 AM): got to get a site first :) I guess I have to make that initial investment in myself to bring the result.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:50 AM): I worked at some of the biggest ad agencies in the world and freelanced my butt off. No conflict, because the work I took didn't compete with the agency's accounts. (2/26/2001 9:50 AM): The conflict is that I'm working at a big ad agency opening up an interactive division. these people could potentially be clients of mine. See the dilemma.

Del (2/26/2001 9:50 AM): Rob: I turned down a trade mag (for a series of articles) because they wouldn't give me the rights to republish my work on my company's website.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:50 AM): Marshal: Sadly, of my 160 affiliates, maybe four have produced results.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:51 AM): (TEN MINUTE WARNING)

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:51 AM): Rob, BUT they are linking to you... that alone helps with your search engine rankings.

GuyCook - (2/26/2001 9:51 AM): Rob, have you heard of firetalk? it is voice over IP, windows based though.

Rafael Lopes( (2/26/2001 9:51 AM): Del....would I be able to publish an INC Magazine feature article on my company coming out in March on my site?

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:51 AM): True, marshal. Del, you did a smart thing. Bad business is just that -- bad business. (2/26/2001 9:51 AM): okay. I see the point Rob. But, ultimately I'd love these clients to crossover to me. It's about personal relationships, ultimately.

Rafael Lopes( (2/26/2001 9:52 AM): Yeah...hear of Firetalk long ago...they are still up as of last week.

GuyCook - (2/26/2001 9:52 AM): I do support there voice, to all over the world and no typing required.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:52 AM): Yeah, Guy, I have. For Voiceover IP, why not just use AOL Instant Messenger?

Del (2/26/2001 9:53 AM): Rafael: You'd have to contact INC Magazine and purchase reprint rights for their article on you. OR just link to their website's copy of the article.

GuyCook - (2/26/2001 9:53 AM): I don't care for AOL's browser, and firetalk's VQ is excellent quality voice.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:53 AM): Meehna, just build the relationships. And when you're ready to fly solo, go after them. That's business. (2/26/2001 9:54 AM): Also, the contacts I make may very well be through representing myself through this agency. I have more cache that way. That's not a conflict is it? Meeting people through my contacts here and then continuing the relationship on my own?

Rafael Lopes( (2/26/2001 9:54 AM): Hopefully the will have the print article online at the site...then GREAT IDEA, I will link to least till its taken down. I will call about reprints. thanks

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:54 AM): Guy, AIM functions outside of AOL. It's an IM service that allows voiceover. Meehna, believe me, going after business is what business is all about. Your agency would come after your business -- and if you're successful, they will.

GuyCook - (2/26/2001 9:55 AM): That is true, IM is stand alone but why type when you can talk. (2/26/2001 9:55 AM): Got it! I'm thinking too much like a woman (which I am). Gotta get tougher about business.

Rafael Lopes( (2/26/2001 9:55 AM): Del...what do you do? Send an email will ya?

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:56 AM): Conflicts have to be DIRECT. For example, I worked for both a regional commuter airline and a national airline at the same tie. It wasn't a conflict, because they flew different routes. (2/26/2001 9:56 AM): I see. There just has to be a distinction in market place.

Del (2/26/2001 9:56 AM): ClickZ had an article that talked about a company following one ad exec to 4 different companies over the course of 17 years. :-)

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:56 AM): Guy, AIM DOES let you talk without typing. IT's like using a phone for free.

GuyCook - (2/26/2001 9:56 AM): Time's about up, back to "it" later all. Bye.

Rafael Lopes( (2/26/2001 9:57 AM): THANK YOU all....nice chatting...very informative. Marshal...I will be visiting your site.

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:57 AM): Meehna, years ago, I worked for an agency where the top account exec and top creative guy decided to open up their own shop by stealing the agency's biggest account. They did it. Nobody even got sued. It's tough out there. And that's about as conflicting as it gets! (2/26/2001 9:58 AM): I'm doing this on "company" time. Better get back to it myself. Have a great day everyone. Thanks, Rob!

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:58 AM): Rafael, Sounds good!

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:58 AM): TWO MINUTES

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 9:59 AM): Alrighty then, thanks Marshal for your input. This was a great session!

Marshal ( (2/26/2001 9:59 AM): Everyone have a great week!

Del (2/26/2001 9:59 AM): Rob: How many companies/individuals do you work with on a weekly basis. (I mean, do you try to focus on only 1 or 2 projects at a time)?

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 10:00 AM): I go with the flow, Del. Some weeks I get phone calls, some I have to travel to client sites and some are slow enough that I gather up the family and take them skiing. (always bring the laptop, though).

Frederick - (2/26/2001 10:01 AM): I'm gone - bye

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 10:01 AM): I prefer four to five fulltime client, with other consultations thrown in, though.

Del (2/26/2001 10:01 AM): Rob: Perhaps we'll pick this up next week. Time for us to close shop, no?

Rob Frankel ( (2/26/2001 10:01 AM): Okie doke, see you all online!

Del (2/26/2001 10:02 AM): Adios

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