Transcript of Frankel's Free Clinic March 8, 1999

RobFrankel (3/8/99 8:58 AM): Greetings, I've had my coffee...

RobFrankel (3/8/99 8:59 AM): Dave, as long as you're here, you should know that I have an interested party for you, but the sales cycles is really slow. Maybe two more months, minimum...

RobFrankel (3/8/99 8:59 AM): OG, are you still here?

Dave - (3/8/99 9:00 AM): WOW! What kind of deal does it look like? (3/8/99 9:00 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:01 AM): Major national company. Retail. Perfect fit for your site. But this stuff takes way more time than any of us would like...

Bruce (3/8/99 9:02 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:02 AM): My own deals are taking waaaaay too much time for my tastes, so don't take it personally.

David Beroff ( (3/8/99 9:04 AM): Entered the room. (3/8/99 9:04 AM): I'm finding working on the web is getting like LA traffic - it's taking more and more time to get anywhere/accomplish anything than it used to. The problem?: more traffic.

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:05 AM): Really? I'm finding that the more I do on the web, the more time I have to play golf!

Muhammad (3/8/99 9:05 AM): Entered the room.

David Beroff ( (3/8/99 9:05 AM): Yeah, I know. :-) Rob, you've mentioned that you had something for me once or twice, but everything takes time; I'm patient. (sometimes ;-)

Dave - (3/8/99 9:06 AM): The LovePoetry web site is a dream turned into a nightmare. I have about 1,000,000 PIs a month and I get about 15 pages visited per user session. That sounds good. I get a 15 minute stay - average - per user session. I get great repeat business. 50% first time, 20 % more than once a day 15 % once a day, 15 % once a week. The problem is that this all ads up to a CTR of .22%

Muhammad (3/8/99 9:06 AM): Taking a long time to close a deal is becoming part of life....

VipSolanki (3/8/99 9:06 AM): Entered the room.

VipSolanki (3/8/99 9:06 AM): Hi all

David Beroff ( (3/8/99 9:06 AM): Right, Dave; the tradeoff of having great content is that no one wants to leave. :-)

Jacob (3/8/99 9:07 AM): Entered the room.

Muhammad (3/8/99 9:07 AM): I can meet with a client, have a signed MOE and it still takes 2-3 months to close the deal...just takes patience....I would rather wait for clients than not get any :)

VipSolanki (3/8/99 9:07 AM): Have been off-line recently... Chaz, thanks for the intro, will be reply to R.S soon

Jacob (3/8/99 9:08 AM): Hello everyone!

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:08 AM): I'm comforted to find that closing bigger deals takes time for everyone, no matter how big or small you are. The problem is that most businesses are so afraid of risk and change, nobody wants to jeopardize their jobs...

Dave - (3/8/99 9:08 AM): David BINGO and repeat visitors don't click twice (3/8/99 9:08 AM): Rob - everyone I know is overwhelmed with the amount of information they get and have to process. (3/8/99 9:08 AM): Vip - Good. And you're welcome.

Muhammad (3/8/99 9:09 AM): In my experience..the clients that close in a week usually turn out to nightmares...the ones that take their time invest time and effort once it starts and are just great to work with

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:09 AM): Chaz, the problem isn't with the amount of information. If you can present your case effectively, they get it. My own issue is that even when you make it clear, the corporate tendency is to stall until a "higher up" takes the responsibility...

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:10 AM): David, your problem is that you haven't matched your advertisers to your visitors' behavior.

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:10 AM): You should be going after sponsors, not advertisers. (3/8/99 9:10 AM): Rob - Ah. I'm talking about once you get the work. I assume it's always going to take a long time to close the deal, but I always seem to get my fair share.

Dave - (3/8/99 9:10 AM): I believe that the absence of a CPM ad model means that to justify a ad campaign they have to glom onto any metric they can to justify the campaign. They use CTR even though the ad campaign may be branding

Muhammad (3/8/99 9:11 AM): .In other words some people are spineless and wait around for someone else to handle so it doesn't fall on them

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:11 AM): That's an old story, Dave. But you have to consider a strategy that goes WITH your site's dynamics, not against it.

David Beroff ( (3/8/99 9:11 AM): Dave, how would this go over: Be perfectly frank with your audience, that you need to convert some of the numbers into $ in order to perpetuate the site. Would you (and they) put up with an entry portal to your site where they could OPTIONALLY give their email addresses and sign up for some related mailing lists, and then go to the section of your site that they wished to select? (It could be transparent in the sense that people would go from the front page to the next page without interruption) (3/8/99 9:12 AM): Muhammad - I also think because the web is so new, corporate types are really frightened about committing.

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:12 AM): Dead on, Muhammad. And it's worse today than it ever was.

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:12 AM): Beroff has a point. Why aren't you hosting a store for a sponsor right there on your site/

Dave - (3/8/99 9:13 AM): Rob, The sponsor will still want to know how the sponsorship is performing. CTR is what he will fall back on

David Beroff ( (3/8/99 9:13 AM): Rob? my "problem"? As a matter of fact, we *are* having good results in matching advertisers to appropriate venues...

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:14 AM): Not necessarily. If you framed I a store that was linked to your subject matter, you could take a percentage of sales.

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:15 AM): Wrong Dave, Beroff. I meant that for LovePoetry...

Dave - (3/8/99 9:15 AM): David, I'm not sure what you mean

David Beroff ( (3/8/99 9:17 AM): Dave, I can show you a proposal off-chat (email me). I wish I could whip up a quick mock-up that was generic, but the one that I have right now is a specific proposal to a specific client, and I can't put that publicly on this chat (which is then archived).

David Beroff ( (3/8/99 9:18 AM): The quick version is this: Right now, you have "Classic Poems", "Featured Poems", etc. You'd have a blurb explaining why you needed the email address, and simply add a field to the screen asking for just that. They'd still click on the button they wanted, but drop you a bit of data along the way.

Muhammad (3/8/99 9:19 AM): Actually I have already sent out several proposals for Dave(LovePoetry) that were tailor made for specific advertisers that are perfect for (3/8/99 9:20 AM): Or, David, do a small survey. I had a client of mine,, do this to collect demographic data, and people are not resisting.

David Beroff ( (3/8/99 9:20 AM): I'm working more and more with a large firm that works with opt-in lists; we could figure out which lists work best for your demographic. (I think it was Rob that has said to figure out what kind of advertiser meets the demo's you have, rather than doing it the other way around.)

Jacob (3/8/99 9:20 AM): Muhammad- what do you do? (sorry for being off-topic)

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:20 AM): I think we all agree that Dave ha a good audience and targeted psychographic there...

David Beroff ( (3/8/99 9:21 AM): (ok, psycho, not demo; u get the idea :-)

Muhammad (3/8/99 9:21 AM): The problem right now goes back to what Rob and I mentioned earlier things just move very slow

David - (3/8/99 9:22 AM): Entered the room.

Muhammad (3/8/99 9:23 AM): I specialize in Web Development, marketing & strategic consulting

Jacob (3/8/99 9:23 AM): Cool, thanks Muhammad

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:23 AM): Yes, Muhammad, which is why I started FrankelBiz, curiously enough. I knew that there were a whole lot of people who could move faster but just needed others to work with.

Muhammad (3/8/99 9:23 AM): take a look at my site:

Muhammad (3/8/99 9:24 AM): So your impatient like me eh?

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:25 AM): ANYONE who wants to do business isn't really impatient, but we see the possibilities. everyone else looks for the liabilities.

Jacob (3/8/99 9:25 AM): I came in late, so I might not be exactly on-topic. I know that at first I was very frustrated with the fact that others worked much slower (or just took longer) than I did.

Jacob (3/8/99 9:25 AM): But recently I have accepted that and have begun using it to my advantage by leveraging my time much better.

Jacob (3/8/99 9:26 AM): Now I can handle double the amount of clients that I could at this time last year.

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:27 AM): Jacob and I have talked about this a lot. The key to handling it is DEAL FLOW. Just keep sending out more proposals while you're waiting for the others to arrive. Then keep following up.

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:27 AM): Some days, it can get depressing, because after a whole day, you look up and say, "what have I accomplished today?"

Jacob (3/8/99 9:28 AM): It all comes down to working efficiently by understanding the people you work with.

David Beroff ( (3/8/99 9:29 AM): I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one asking that sometimes, Rob. :-)

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:31 AM): Are you kidding? One of the best parts of FrankelBiz is that you know you're dealing with people in the same mindset. I can tell you that I've gotten a lot of positive responses to my last posting. I integrate our members into my projects, too.

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:32 AM): In fact, our new affiliate program is with Mike Tingle of Mind The Store. And I just handed off a client to Michael Hammons.

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:33 AM): BTW, Jacob, just saw a TV commercial for Mobhits. Congratulations...

Louise of Greencottage soap :) (3/8/99 9:34 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:34 AM): Mike was excellent because his company is fast and responsive. that's the kind of people you want to do business with. Once you get established with them, the big boys come running because there's less risk.

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:35 AM): You know, now that she's signed on, why haven't Dave LovePoetry and Louise GreenCottage done a deal? It sounds like there could be something there...

Jacob (3/8/99 9:35 AM): Thanks Rob, the product is moving excellently on the web, nice commission checks for me.

Dave - (3/8/99 9:36 AM): I'm not sure. I have talked to her

Jacob (3/8/99 9:36 AM): That's another example of using your time wisely. I have almost no work to do on the website every month, but I get a hefty commission on online sales. In the beginning I said I would forego design fees for a commission instead. They thought I was crazy and agreed.

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:37 AM): Louise, couldn't you put together a sensual soap package as a special offer to Dave's people, so that people could read poetry in the bathtub to each other?

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:37 AM): You got it right, Jacob. I see Koufax is getting it over the plate....

Dave - (3/8/99 9:38 AM): Rob, what is the URL of this archived session. I got a call and missed a lot.

Jacob (3/8/99 9:38 AM): Yeah, learning slowly Rob, thanks!

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:38 AM): Louise, do you suppose you can come up with another name that I don't constantly mistype????

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:39 AM): Archives are at

Muhammad (3/8/99 9:40 AM): I know what you mean, I got a lot done last week but since my standards are so high and I am used to doing 50% more it felt like the week was a wash.

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:41 AM): You'll find that at least when you work on a participatory basis (commission checks, etc) it really helps with the waiting. I don't know about you guys, but WGI paid off handsomely for me....

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:42 AM): Muhammad, high standards are great. Not appreciated by all, but the stuff that eventual success is made of. That, and a bit of luck mixed with persistence.

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:43 AM): I truly believe in the "first man through" theory, where it only takes one person to get that break, who pulls the others through. I've done it before. And ALL the big time people do it with their circles, too.

Louise ( (3/8/99 9:44 AM): Entered the room.

Louise ( (3/8/99 9:44 AM): got kicked :(

Dave - (3/8/99 9:44 AM): WGI?

David Beroff ( (3/8/99 9:45 AM): Agreed, Rob; I am working with one set of larger firms that readily admit to the herd mentality, & once 1 is courageous enough to make a decision, the others follow more easily.

Louise ( (3/8/99 9:45 AM): I dunno Rob.. guess you can call me whatever you like :), cept Louise :)

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:45 AM): Wgi was our first sponsor. They specialize in search engine optimization and URL marketing. Their FrankelBiz program (pay per sale) netted me decent bucks for doing what I normally do. I referred them business, and they paid out like a slot machine. T

Jacob (3/8/99 9:46 AM): Sorry, gotta run. But I always love discussing the philosophy of time and business. See you next time!

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:47 AM): Beroff, my book contracts were supposed to be finished last December. My L.A. Times contract was supposed to be done last week. The average deal flow hit rate is about 5%. If you close that consistently, you're doing great.

Louise ( (3/8/99 9:47 AM): Sorry Dave, overworked, underpaid, and busy LOL :) we gotta chat some more!

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:47 AM): BTW. WGI's FrankelBiz referral program is still in force...

Dave - (3/8/99 9:47 AM): I know that cost per sale has its place but I don't feel good about giving away PIs

Louise ( (3/8/99 9:48 AM): PI's?

Dave - (3/8/99 9:49 AM): Page Impressions (or Page Views)

Dave - (3/8/99 9:51 AM): If a site has 1,000,000 PIs a month and has a CTR of 1% and is paid on clicks than 99% of the PIs are given away for free

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:51 AM): That's why I think you should be sponsoring and taking commissions on sales from sponsors. Once the word is out that the program is successful, you're likely to find advertisers will pay, too.

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:51 AM): (TEN MINUTE WARNING) Any other real, down to the mat questions?

David Beroff ( (3/8/99 9:53 AM): Dave, no. I agree that CPC's are much lower than the corresponding CPM's, but either way, you have to spread them out over all of the PI's; you can't take the attitude that 99% are given away for free.

Dave - (3/8/99 9:53 AM): I guess I'm still reacting to 3 months of Barnes and Noble and getting $1.50

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:54 AM): Dave (LovePoetry) stop laying the other guy's game! The rules are in their favor, not yours. You've got to invent your own game and play it with people who understand and support it.

Dave - (3/8/99 9:54 AM): David: If I got some payment such as $#1.00 CPM It would be better

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:55 AM): Again, I go back to the WGI example. It was personally worth thousands of $ to me. Beats the hell our of point and click.

Louise ( (3/8/99 9:55 AM): I kinda like the commission option, where a percentage of what they buy goes to you :)

David Beroff ( (3/8/99 9:55 AM): Dave, not everything that I have tried has worked ... but some programs work marvelously ... I forget how much Corey Rudl's program paid us in 1998 (on a %age-of-sale basis), but it was five digits.

Dave - (3/8/99 9:56 AM): Rob: I'm all for trying something new

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:56 AM): Yeah David (Beroff) really gets it. great attitude, solid plan. And don't stick with something that constantly fails.

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:57 AM): Banner advertising is the LAST thing that works for most sites. Almost anything else works better and produces quicker.

Louise ( (3/8/99 9:58 AM): and a lot of good informational sites, won't have banner ads on them anymore

Dave - (3/8/99 9:58 AM): Louise: Why?

RobFrankel (3/8/99 9:59 AM): (TWO MINUTES) (3/8/99 9:59 AM): Thank you all. Talk to you soon.

Louise ( (3/8/99 10:00 AM): because it cheapens the look

RobFrankel (3/8/99 10:00 AM): It also distracts from the main intent of the site. That's annoying.

RobFrankel (3/8/99 10:00 AM): Nothing drives away visitors faster.

RobFrankel (3/8/99 10:00 AM): Okay, you guys, I've gotta run. But you are most welcome to continue as long as you want. You can also use this site to meet any time you like during the week. See you online!

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