Transcript of Frankel's Free Clinic June 5, 2000

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 8:59 AM): Greetings all...almost didn't make it...

Yancey ( (6/5/2000 9:00 AM): Entered the room.

Terri Robinson ( (6/5/2000 9:00 AM): Entered the room.

Pete Smith - (6/5/2000 9:00 AM): Entered the room.

Ira Pasternack (6/5/2000 9:00 AM): Entered the room.

Yancey ( (6/5/2000 9:00 AM): That's the first time you have missed the meeting announcement in how many years?

Terri Robinson ( (6/5/2000 9:00 AM): Greetings Rob, Guy, Patti, Yancey!

Guy Cook - (6/5/2000 9:01 AM): Greetings all from Washington State

BobAdams ( (6/5/2000 9:01 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:01 AM): Hey, there's no excuse. Must have been all the wine in Business Class...

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:02 AM): On the other hand, I announced it LAST Monday and only two people showed...

Guy Cook - (6/5/2000 9:02 AM): Congrats Terri on your recent article being published.

Yancey ( (6/5/2000 9:03 AM): Go Terri!

Terri Robinson ( (6/5/2000 9:03 AM): Thanks Guy! I liked that one a lot <G> Rob, I thought you wouldn't be here for the holiday - I was up in Flagstaff avoiding the heat!

Guy Cook - (6/5/2000 9:03 AM): I did the holiday proper and just loafed

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:04 AM): Well, our Non-American friends have no holiday, and being the global ambassador that I am, I felt compelled to be here.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:04 AM): Anyway, who's up first? Pete? New guys go first.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:05 AM): And look -- Ira! Long time no see, pal!

Ira Pasternack (6/5/2000 9:05 AM): heh, yup, I think its been a year

Pete Smith - (6/5/2000 9:06 AM): Thanks for the invite to go first. Have been a lurker on the list for some time. Have been working on a radio web service. At the point of rolling out to radio stations. Looking for suggestions. Have not had much feedback from the radio community. Anyone, especially with a radio background, who would like to provide comments to me later, I appreciate your help. Concept is free 90 second short stories to the radio station with ads included that are purchased by bid or free.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:07 AM): Pete, is this over the air or over the web?

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:07 AM): And specifically, what kind of input are you looking for?

Guy Cook - (6/5/2000 9:09 AM): The content is free to the stations? Ads are sold to the client right?

Pete Smith - (6/5/2000 9:10 AM): These are supplied by email weekly to the radio stations: internet or conventional. They may also choose from the inventory on the site. Feedback questions: Is the business model right, e.g. sway the 90 second story for 120 seconds of air time with a 15 second commercial included. Feedback question 2: Have list of email addresses of @1800 ratio stations. Intend direct email to them.

Pete Smith - (6/5/2000 9:11 AM): Yes, ads are sold via a bid process to clients.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:11 AM): Well, if you're thinking of sending unsolicited e-mail you're asking for failure. What's the format of the show -- focus on small business? What's the topic -- that determines a lot.

Terri Robinson ( (6/5/2000 9:12 AM): Have you already sent something to these 1800 radio stations, Pete?

Pete Smith - (6/5/2000 9:13 AM): Kind of nostalgic upbeat human interest stories. No, I have had a PR release drafted professionally, ready to go. Thought I would try 100-200 at a time.

Terri Robinson ( (6/5/2000 9:14 AM): Rob is right - the theme of the station is going to determine whether they would be interested in your content

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:14 AM): I have a real problem -- personally -- in trying to PR myself. First, I think that unless you've got a killer product, doing PR yourself really undermines your credibility. Makes you look small time. (6/5/2000 9:14 AM): sorry .. hello all I missed coming in .. got caught up on the phone

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:15 AM): For example, I have my Virtual Assistant handling all publicity for both my book and my speaking gigs.

Pete Smith - (6/5/2000 9:15 AM): Agree on theme. Looking at talk radio, maybe religious format, Over 21, classical.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:15 AM): But with PR, it's really important that the right person know the contact. Unfortunately, it's the relationships that make PR work, not sheer numbers.

Pete Smith - (6/5/2000 9:16 AM): Virtual Assistant?

Guy Cook - (6/5/2000 9:16 AM): Pete, do you have an online "media kit" for your product?

Ira Pasternack (6/5/2000 9:16 AM): is that really unfortunate Rob?

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:16 AM): That having been said, the lower you aim, the better your chances of a cold-call success. Smaller stations, web sites -- less sophisticated -- tend to be more approachable, because, quite frankly, fewer people are trying to contact them

Pete Smith - (6/5/2000 9:17 AM): No. I have not put together an online media kit: Any URL suggestions?

Guy Cook - (6/5/2000 9:17 AM): soundsgoodtome could do it.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:17 AM): Virtual Assistant -- assistant who is out there somewhere. We work by e-mail and phone. She's great for doing research and contact like this.

Guy Cook - (6/5/2000 9:18 AM): I think there are many days that Program Directors look for new content

Pete Smith - (6/5/2000 9:18 AM): Agree on size: The list I have does break down market size and my intent was to start at the bottom and work up.

Andy TeBockhorst ( (6/5/2000 9:18 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:18 AM): It is unfortunate, Ira, because a lot of people are lulled into thinking that just because they buy a database of radio station fax numbers, those radio stations will respond.

Pete Smith - (6/5/2000 9:19 AM): p.s. Don't know your protocol. Don't want to hog the whole session. Appreciate the help. Shut me off when appropriate. (6/5/2000 9:19 AM): they may well go ballistic for wasting their time and fax paper

Guy Cook - (6/5/2000 9:19 AM): Pete have you tried the "online" networks of radio stations that broadcast live on the net?

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:19 AM): Pete, the reason why I pay for PR people (on larger accounts) is because I know that the person I hire has a relationship with the media people I'm trying to sell. They can do it with a phone call in ten minutes. It would take me a lifetime.

Terri Robinson ( (6/5/2000 9:20 AM): Guy, that's very true - I have found that the best way to go is to develop a personal relationship with the person in charge of producing that content and it is VERY time consuming to do that - having a pro who has those contacts and is trusted is a good way to go though

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:20 AM): On the other hand, Pete, the guy who HAS done this successfully is Paul Hartunian. Visit

Pete Smith - (6/5/2000 9:21 AM): Have used the list about a year ago and got some good results then. Guy. I'm working on developing the online station list.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:21 AM): Patti, another thing media people hate is badly worded or mis-addressed press releases. That tips them off that an amateur is trying to get to them.

Ira Pasternack (6/5/2000 9:22 AM): OK, I've got a related question here, about how to find the best PR help without breaking the bank (6/5/2000 9:23 AM): good point .. a writer once told me to get a query where it was needed to call and ask the receptionist for the information like I had all the business in the world to do so ... that often gets pieces over the transom so to speak

Guy Cook - (6/5/2000 9:23 AM): I think the folks that are online are the stations that are going to last, having the online "reach" won't hurt your product.

Ira Pasternack (6/5/2000 9:23 AM): I've seen the problems (first hand) of trying to do it on my own... I've also seen what a top notch PR Agency can do for 20K+ per month... what's the best way to find a professional who will give you what you need, but not cost an arm and a leg

Weber (6/5/2000 9:24 AM): Entered the room.

Guy Cook - (6/5/2000 9:24 AM): I would not ask the PR, but their clients who is good, ask for referrals.

Weber (6/5/2000 9:24 AM): Greetings All!

Bob Adams ( (6/5/2000 9:24 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:24 AM): Your best shot is somewhere in between, Ira: a PR person who has left their firm to freelance. Of course, you have to discern who left to go solo and who was fired for incompetence...

Terri Robinson ( (6/5/2000 9:25 AM): Paul Hartunian is brilliant! And like Rob said, he has ALL the media contacts - not to mention his prices are reasonable :)

Guy Cook - (6/5/2000 9:26 AM): And there you go, Paul is the "bomb"

Ira Pasternack (6/5/2000 9:26 AM): Any tips on where to search for those types Rob? I'm going to be looking within the next month, and ideally I'll find someone like you describe, who has experience related to the industry my new venture is in...

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:26 AM): You could also go through the side door: find someone in a non-competitive area who is a little ahead of where you are in the placement of media and leverage their media contacts. It's a good way to start.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:27 AM): Well, Ira, you can try the FrankelBiz list. Paul is a member, and Paul Krupin is another. You should get some good response.

Bob Adams ( (6/5/2000 9:27 AM): Ira, try Their free-agent section is all about free-lancers

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:28 AM): Paul Hartunian is very smart, very funny -- and very practical. The first time I met him we became friends for life.

Andy TeBockhorst ( (6/5/2000 9:28 AM): Try These are freelancers looking for work... lots in PR!

Pete Smith - (6/5/2000 9:28 AM): Rob...RE:Your sidedoor suggestion. Found another provider of radio shorts like mine. Non-competitive format. He publishes his station list. Thought I would try that list first.

Ira Pasternack (6/5/2000 9:28 AM): I know Paul K, does the other one have a site that anyone can point me to off hand?

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:28 AM): You may also want to contact Audri Lanford at She and Paul work together, but she also has other contacts.

Guy Cook - (6/5/2000 9:28 AM): Good idea Andy. I heard of ants once, but hadn't been.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:29 AM): There you go, Pete -- why not try what works? Maybe even get an endorsement from your buddy. Nothing succeeds like success....

Terri Robinson ( (6/5/2000 9:29 AM): Paul Hartunian puts out a monthly newsletter that is really awesome! I learned a LOT from reading that too.

Andy TeBockhorst ( (6/5/2000 9:30 AM): I've hired off of a couple of times for clients, and it worked quite well (YMMV)

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:30 AM): Yes, if you're into trying the "fax to a million stations" strategy, I would go with Paul Hartunian first. He's done it successfully.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:30 AM): Andy, tell us more about your experience at Can you refer anyone to Ira?

Pete Smith - (6/5/2000 9:30 AM): This would be an email contact to the Programming Director.

Andy TeBockhorst ( (6/5/2000 9:32 AM): I'd have to look back through my records, but sure. Ira you can email me at

Andy TeBockhorst ( (6/5/2000 9:33 AM): let's you put projects out for bidding. You outline the project, include all details, and then the "ants" come in and bid on the project with comments etc. You can read over all those interested and usually find someone good. I hired a graphic designer to design a logo and a PR person to write up a press release.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:34 AM): The real issue though, isn't so much the press release as it is the person who can get the connection for you...

Andy TeBockhorst ( (6/5/2000 9:35 AM): Is this a national distribution, or local/regional (6/5/2000 9:35 AM): quality bread upon the waters only has value if it doesn't sink into oblivion

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:37 AM): Patti, you're Soooooooooo deep.

Ira Pasternack (6/5/2000 9:37 AM): Exactly Rob... I've written many releases, and I have seen releases written by top end agencies, and I really don't think there is a huge difference there... but having the connections, and the staff to sit on the phone all day and make new connections, is another story

Andy TeBockhorst ( (6/5/2000 9:38 AM): did we fall asleep? (6/5/2000 9:38 AM): thanks rob.. as long as what I'm deep in isn't bs***

Pete Smith - (6/5/2000 9:39 AM): Andy...this radio service is intended for national distribution.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:39 AM): When it come to PR, I take my own advice re: branding: doing it yourself works...for suicide. I am horrible at it. (6/5/2000 9:39 AM): too close to the issue rob?

Andy TeBockhorst ( (6/5/2000 9:40 AM): Hate to be a parrot, but I agree with Rob... you need a pro if you're going national. If hiring a PR firm is too much $, find someone who is in the industry who has had some success in this area.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:40 AM): Yes, too close, no contacts, completely lacking skills. I'd probably do better faking being a neurosurgeon.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:40 AM): At least there I know which end to start cutting.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:41 AM): Anyone else have a pressing issue? (Just checking) (6/5/2000 9:41 AM): Ummm I'll take your word.. I've not got brains to spare for you to try that assumption on

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:41 AM): Any lurkers out there want to log on? (Just inviting you while we still have time)

Andy TeBockhorst ( (6/5/2000 9:42 AM): The key with PR is to find someone who specializes in your market. Many PR pros have a lot of media contacts , but if they don't know the guys at the appropriate trade magazine, they are no more qualified than you making cold calls.

Guy Cook - (6/5/2000 9:42 AM): I am redesigning, take a look when you have a sec.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:42 AM): For those of you here, I suspect that for every person that actually logs on here, another five are too shy to do so and simply lurk....

Pete Smith - (6/5/2000 9:42 AM): My thanks to everyone for their help, time, and referral suggestions. I invite everyone to visit the site. You may shortcut the login with "amfm" as the user name (No quotes) and your email address. No password needed.

Guy Cook - (6/5/2000 9:43 AM): We are adding dedicated server offerings later today or first thing tomorrow (6/5/2000 9:43 AM): any ball park opinions on at what number of subscribers to a newsletter is a reasonable target to start selling ads?

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:43 AM): Yes Andy, those are the freelancers you must avoid.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:43 AM): Those are the ones that got fired for incompetence.

Weber (6/5/2000 9:43 AM): I heard around 1000

Guy Cook - (6/5/2000 9:43 AM): Good luck Pete, great idea.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:44 AM): Patti, the magic number is 10,000. But we have fewer than that on FrankelBiz and still manage to sell an ad or two.

Weber (6/5/2000 9:44 AM): We are looking for a reasonably priced reliable company to host a new Ezine we are about to start publishing. Any ideas where to look?

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:44 AM): The "big boys" like John Audette and Adam Boettiger both have lists that have more than 10,000 and they sell out.

Andy TeBockhorst ( (6/5/2000 9:45 AM): has done a great job for almost all of my websites (6/5/2000 9:45 AM): hehe don't think I'll ever get up to their level but nice place to target

Ira Pasternack (6/5/2000 9:45 AM): Patti, it depends on your goals and how tight a niche your subscribers are in, I'd say the number can be as low as 1000 or so, but I'd agree that 10,000 is more reasonable for most circumstances

Bob Adams ( (6/5/2000 9:45 AM): We have 1,000 subscribers and sell a few as well

Guy Cook - (6/5/2000 9:45 AM): Weber do you just need a server? I do that.

Andy TeBockhorst ( (6/5/2000 9:46 AM): I have a mailing list of 28,000 names... gee, maybe I should start selling ads for these guys?

Weber (6/5/2000 9:46 AM): Is expensive?

Weber (6/5/2000 9:47 AM): Guy, yes I believe so. What I want to do is to write the newsletter (format it and all) post it and have it sent to our subscribers.

Andy TeBockhorst ( (6/5/2000 9:47 AM): Costs are pretty average, but their facilities are great (tight security, 99.9% uptime, several backup systems... I've never had an outage.

Bob Adams ( (6/5/2000 9:47 AM): I think it also depends on the audience & how targeted it is. Our are all medical professionals which carries a higher price tag. (6/5/2000 9:47 AM): thanks ... always good to have a ballpark idea where to head

Yancey ( (6/5/2000 9:47 AM): Weber, try

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:48 AM): Andy -- hat are you doing with 28,000 names?

Andy TeBockhorst ( (6/5/2000 9:48 AM): When you talk about sending a newsletter to your lists and selling ads, are these just the text ads we see in e-mail newsletters, or are you talking full-blown html newsletters and banner ads (6/5/2000 9:48 AM): you're not looking for a web presence as much as handling the mailing list Weber.. btw.. is this pat?

Weber (6/5/2000 9:48 AM): Topica puts in ads I want it add free so eventually we can sell ads.

Andy TeBockhorst ( (6/5/2000 9:49 AM): Rob, these names are from people who registered to play my online fantasy baseball game at We have all of their demographic info, address, e-mail etc. Pretty targeted list too, as they are all buyers of baseball cards (draw what conclusions you will.)

Bob Adams ( (6/5/2000 9:49 AM): You also may want to try Slingshot Media (a FrankelBee I think) at

Guy Cook - (6/5/2000 9:49 AM): Weber, email me what you want and I will send you a quote -- end shameless plug

Weber (6/5/2000 9:49 AM): Patti, yes we just want the list administered. You know so subscribers can sign up, and remove themselves, I can download names when I want, the usual stuff. Nothing fancy. (6/5/2000 9:49 AM): yes Sharon is a FrankelBee

Weber (6/5/2000 9:49 AM): Guy Will do.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:50 AM): Yancey, you should be getting $1000 a week on your list.

Yancey ( (6/5/2000 9:51 AM): Weber, allows you to not have the ads, but their name is in a one line footer.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:51 AM): (TEN MINUTE WARNING)

Weber (6/5/2000 9:52 AM): Are you sure? When I visited their site I saw it was free, but they put in their own ads.

Andy TeBockhorst ( (6/5/2000 9:52 AM): Rob, how did you set the rates for the advertising on your list?

Andy TeBockhorst ( (6/5/2000 9:52 AM): on your newsletter. I mean.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:52 AM): I tried to make as many people faint as possible.

Yancey ( (6/5/2000 9:52 AM): Run a test list, and play with the options, I have lists with NO ads in them.

Andy TeBockhorst ( (6/5/2000 9:53 AM): Did you use the standard "faints per thousand" equation? (6/5/2000 9:53 AM): hehe when they quit fainting you thought you might have a price?

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:53 AM): No, actually, it was based on cost of sales plus response rates. I happen to know our list generates huge -- way higher than average -- response with high close rates. So I charge premium, especially with my "introduction".

Weber (6/5/2000 9:54 AM): Yancy, How much extra do they charge for no ads?

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:54 AM): The other issue is that less than $1000 per week isn't worth the admin time. That's how you have to price your list. Too low and too granular ends up costing you YOUR time and money.

Andy TeBockhorst ( (6/5/2000 9:54 AM): egroups has a no-ad option for #54/year

Bob Adams ( (6/5/2000 9:54 AM): Charging a premium rate also allows you some 'wiggle room' in negotiating with preferred advertisers

Andy TeBockhorst ( (6/5/2000 9:55 AM): , that is! egroups has a no-ad option for #54/year

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:55 AM): Set your price a bit higher, and you screen out the small timers who wouldn't buy anyway.

Yancey ( (6/5/2000 9:55 AM): Zero, they are hoping enough have the ads to run their business.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:56 AM): Of course, if you're up at 28,000, I suppose you could go the old CPM route. But then you have to supply a lot more rate card information. It's the sell that they buy, not the CPM...

Andy TeBockhorst ( (6/5/2000 9:56 AM): I have a very targeted list of potential advertisers... great! Thanks Rob, you just bumped all of my to-dos for the day... I'm gonna start selling some ads!

Pete Smith - (6/5/2000 9:56 AM): Suggest for those granular lists that you include an affiliate ad. I have some granular lists and my Amazon affiliate ad generates a few bucks for no cost on my part.

Bob Adams ( (6/5/2000 9:57 AM): Gotta go--have a good week all!

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:57 AM): So, Andy, does this mean I get an extra special gift this Christmas?

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:57 AM): (TWO MINUTES)

Weber (6/5/2000 9:57 AM): Andy, do you have a URL for egroups

Terri Robinson ( (6/5/2000 9:58 AM): Thanks for a great session today, Rob and everyone! I have to run too! See you all next week.

Andy TeBockhorst ( (6/5/2000 9:58 AM): why yes... or www. (they are now the same thing.)

Pete Smith - (6/5/2000 9:58 AM): Again, my thanks as the Neophyte to this forum.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:58 AM): Andy, go to and to steal some really well done rate card presentations. John and Adam are the top of the heap.

Andy TeBockhorst ( (6/5/2000 9:58 AM): We'll see Rob... I haven't sold anything yet!

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:59 AM): You're welcome any time Pete.

RobFrankel ( (6/5/2000 9:59 AM): Okay, folks, I have a ton of catching up to do, so I'm heading out! See you all online! (6/5/2000 9:59 AM): Andy that is onelist and egroups are the same thing now

Weber (6/5/2000 9:59 AM): Thanks Andy

Andy TeBockhorst ( (6/5/2000 10:00 AM): Will do. Thanks again Rob... it's always a pleasure!

Ira Pasternack (6/5/2000 10:00 AM): Thanks all, it was great to get back in here after a year or so... (6/5/2000 10:00 AM): thanks rob (6/5/2000 10:01 AM): good to 'meet' you Ira and Pat.. I subscribe to each of you

Weber (6/5/2000 10:01 AM): Thanks Rob.

Ira Pasternack (6/5/2000 10:01 AM): In the next week or so, I'll have confirmation on initial funding (knock on wood) for a new venture, I'll be able to talk about that as soon as we are moving forward, looking forward to some great feedback

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