Transcript of Frankel's Free Clinic June 24, 2002

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:01 AM): Greetings!

Lyman Stucky (6/24/2002 9:01 AM): Hi Rob, got a question, where's the line form?

weber (6/24/2002 9:01 AM): mornin'

Skip Pratt ( (6/24/2002 9:01 AM): Entered the room.

Brett Stuckel ( (6/24/2002 9:01 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:02 AM): The line starts here. Step on up?

Brett Stuckel ( (6/24/2002 9:02 AM): Good morning all

weber (6/24/2002 9:02 AM): Rob, how come the reminders about the clinic are coming later and later?

Lyman Stucky (6/24/2002 9:05 AM): Rob, I've got some articles almost ready to submit to publishers. There are submit-sites out there to send content to publishers...any experience with any of them? Interested in both paid and unpaid sites...

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:06 AM): Hold on...

Jeffrey Schlesinger ( (6/24/2002 9:07 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:07 AM): Phone call.....back in a few seconds

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:08 AM): MAJOR new business....

Brett Stuckel ( (6/24/2002 9:08 AM): I could go for one of those calls right about now

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:09 AM): Almost done

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:10 AM): Whoa, that was a nice birthday present!

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:10 AM): Okay, I'm back.

Lyman Stucky (6/24/2002 9:10 AM): HB2U eh?

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:11 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:11 AM): Thank you....Lyman, submitting articles on a push basis is very difficult. I haven't ever been successful doing it myself, but I'll tell you a couple of ways that do work:

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:11 AM): Lyman, check out

Lyman Stucky (6/24/2002 9:12 AM): surfing over as we speak....

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:12 AM): personally, my stuff gets reprinted when people find stuff on my site that they want to publish. I let them, as long as they publish my links and keep the copy intact.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:13 AM): #1 method of pushing articles, though, has to be hiring a well-connected publicist. It's not cheap, but it does work. For years, I tried to get articles published in ADWEEK, but in the next month or so, my publicist will have an article of mine in there. She just knows how to pitch stuff better.

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:14 AM): There are many ezines desperate for copy as well.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:14 AM): #2 is to contact syndicator, like Anita suggests. although that, too, can be slow going. There are services that will take your content and syndicate it, but the problem there is that you're relying on people finding you. They don't push your content.

Jeffrey Schlesinger ( (6/24/2002 9:15 AM): Rob, I had a potential account tell me that they didn't want any other brands put on their product. After the last zinger you sent me regarding rethinking brand strategey. Is it advisable to private label and give up the brand to another for the business

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:15 AM): I can't tell you how many people send me unsolicited articles for me to use in my newsletters. I NEVER use them, mainly because I think they're very presumptuous and most of the stuff is very hack.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:16 AM): Jeff, was I too harsh in the FrankelTips? Didn't mean to be....

Marshal Rogers ( (6/24/2002 9:16 AM): Entered the room.

Jeffrey Schlesinger ( (6/24/2002 9:17 AM): nope just a reality of doing business the correct way

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:17 AM): Jeff, I think that overall, you've got to loosen up a bit and roll with the opportunities. There's a way to private label and maintain your brand, but the numbers have to be there. The private label deal has to be controlled -- and big enough to make the deal worth it.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:18 AM): If you private label WRONG, you're correct in assuming you'll destroy your branded business. It's a question of balance.

Jeffrey Schlesinger ( (6/24/2002 9:18 AM): The numbers can be very large if the deals can be done

Lyman Stucky (6/24/2002 9:18 AM): Thanks Anita for the tip...One area I've already found great insights is in Marketing FAME, part of ClickZ. The I-Branding list is pretty savvy, kudos to the Moderating Dictator!....

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:19 AM): Jeff, there's a real possibility here that your ultimate brand is NOT to the end user, but to major brands who you OEM for....but we'd have to nut out the details to see how the numbers crank.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:20 AM): There are lots of dress manufacturers, for example, who do NOTHING but private label for major brands. That's their strategy

Jeffrey Schlesinger ( (6/24/2002 9:20 AM): Rob these are all OEM's

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:20 AM): Sometimes the market does your thinking for you!

Jeffrey Schlesinger ( (6/24/2002 9:21 AM): These are the guys are private labeling for other large retailers

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:22 AM): Jeff, I'd have to know more of the details, but you see where I'm going? You've jumped into the market with a good product and a good service. Now, the market may be tugging you into a direction that it wants to go. The trick is knowing if it's pulling you into a bigger, more profitable scenario, or tempting you with an illusion. That's the big picture. The details are what make or break you.

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:22 AM): What's an OEM?

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:22 AM): Overall, this sounds like a spreadsheet issue, doesn't it? Like we said earlier, if the numbers -- and the controls -- are there, this could eventually be the way you go.

Jeffrey Schlesinger ( (6/24/2002 9:22 AM): Well we can see what they are telling us, destroy my brand if you want the business

weber (6/24/2002 9:23 AM): Anita - Original Equipment Manufacturer

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:23 AM): OEM = Original Equipment manufacturer. This is like Whirlpool making washing machines, but slapping on a logo for Sears.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:23 AM): Jeff, you're too extreme. I've done deals on the middle ground

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:24 AM): Anita, that way it looks like Sears makes the washing machine, only you're just buying the sears brand on Whirlpool's machines.

Jeffrey Schlesinger ( (6/24/2002 9:24 AM): OK OK I'll loosen up

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:24 AM): Jeff, it's NOT "either or". If they make you think that, they're bluffing.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:24 AM): Gotta get jiggy with Jeff!

John Feld (6/24/2002 9:25 AM): Entered the room.

Jeffrey Schlesinger ( (6/24/2002 9:25 AM): Where's the tequila?

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:25 AM): Rob, I thought you were a bit rough with my question in the Tips.

Lyman Stucky (6/24/2002 9:26 AM): The tequila is right next to Rob's "numbers" ... <g>

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:27 AM): Anita, didn't mean to be rough and if you look at it again, you'll see it was just comments that nobody else will tell you. My thinking is that your friends tell you the truth

Fran (6/24/2002 9:27 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:27 AM): But again, I'm sorry if it sounded rough. I just hate to see you possibly losing business after working so hard to get people to your site!

Fran (6/24/2002 9:27 AM): hi everyone...what's the topic of the day :)

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:27 AM): Problem is, I don't understand sales.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:28 AM): Anita, you CAN'T be a worse salesman than me!

Jeffrey Schlesinger ( (6/24/2002 9:28 AM): I feel like last week I went a few rounds

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:28 AM): Rob, you know how to write a pitch.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:28 AM): Anita, I have been known to be TOO direct. That's a personality flaw of mine. I just want the best for you.

Jeffrey Schlesinger ( (6/24/2002 9:29 AM): Rob, got to go take my kids to camp. Thanks for the insight!

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:29 AM): Hey, if it eventually helps, though, you're way better off! It's like having a serious tumor removed: it hurts at first, but you're far healthier in the long run. And once you understand that's it NOT personal, you start to work on getting healthier.

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:29 AM): I'm am also blunt, and have learned diplomacy in my latter years.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:31 AM): Problem is, Anita, so many people out there -- including friends, relative and clients -- won't tell you the real truth about important issues like these. If you re-read the FrankelTips, you'll see that nothing is negative. In fact, it's positive stuff, like asking why we can't see more of you and your obviously great qualifications!

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:31 AM): You are right, it was constructive crit.

Lyman Stucky (6/24/2002 9:31 AM): I had some employees and consultants years ago that turned out to be "yes" men and did me *NO* favors. The best friends and consultants you'll ever get will challenge your premises, your paradigms. Sometimes it's not comfortable for anyone involved but it's better than not having that reality check...

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:32 AM): Right, Lyman, and what's the worst that can happen? You can think about it and reject it, too ya know! But as long as you HAVE thought about these things, that's all that counts.

Skip Pratt ( (6/24/2002 9:32 AM): Anita, I agree with Rob....while diplomacy is the politically correct way to go, growing your business with experienced "insiders" telling you the truth, diplomacy must be tossed out the window....

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:32 AM): I just don't want you to miss anything

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:32 AM): But, how do I show my qualifications?

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:32 AM): The people I can't deal with are people with opinions and no suggestions or rationale.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:33 AM): Well. if I want Anita for MY search guru, I need to start out wondering WHY she IS a guru to begin with. Who is she? How did she end up here? We all want to know this stuff, although talking about ourselves is always difficult.

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:33 AM): I tell people I am a reference librarian by training.

Skip Pratt ( (6/24/2002 9:34 AM): The ones I really dislike working with are PC, always on everyone's side, but are ultimately revealed to have some ulterior motive....

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:34 AM): Anita, I think a quick rundown of how you began in library services and ended up here -- and showing the connection -- is a very different presentation that I've never seen anywhere else. It strikes me as a more intelligent way of arriving at SEO.

Lyman Stucky (6/24/2002 9:34 AM): Anita, you are thus branding yourself as a bookworm, not a problem-solving, Internet-savvy search guru!

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:35 AM): Right Lyman....Anita needs to work on a page that draws the two together, showing how she leverages her reference training to make her THE search Guru

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:36 AM): Then I'd better not say anything about my archaeology work!

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:36 AM): I hear you, Skip.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:37 AM): Anita, you're right. The minute you let up on your focus, people think you're not serious about their issue. It would be like me talking about branding one minute and bulldozer parts the next...

Skip Pratt ( (6/24/2002 9:37 AM): Anita, I've been struggling with how to weave the story also...

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:37 AM): I don't want my site to be too much text, not have promises I can't keep.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:37 AM): Anita, the only tie in to archaeology that I see is "digging around for the best links", which is an awful reference, if I do say so myself.

Skip Pratt ( (6/24/2002 9:37 AM): because I'm launching a new site/service and have widely varied career experiences too...

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:38 AM): If it helps, I had the same problem, as well. You have no idea how difficult it was for me to give up the whole idea/career of advertising to focus on branding

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:38 AM): My competitors have deals on their pages, and mention nothing about themselves.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:39 AM): Holy cow, I have entrepreneurial, agency, advertising, marketing, funding and other assets that simply have to take a backseat to the branding thing.

Elizabeth (6/24/2002 9:39 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:39 AM): Anita, if it's quality practice you want to build, you must realize that the relationship is what people pay for. Otherwise, people with just buy Search Position Gold and be done with it.

Skip Pratt ( (6/24/2002 9:40 AM): Anita, I work in the internet and software business...we have an seo practice...we are highly ranked under selected search terms....

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:40 AM): BTW, I worked with a brutally honest friend on my stuff, and went through the same things you're going through.

Skip Pratt ( (6/24/2002 9:40 AM): it is an very difficult business...our surveys show users are looking for free info, not a service to do it for them...

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:40 AM): I do not promise high ranking, and my prices are aimed at the small business niche.

Frederick ( (6/24/2002 9:41 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:41 AM): What you have to remember is this: you LEAD with your focused brand. Doesn't mean that they won't find out about your other stuff later, when its appropriate.

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:41 AM): Yeah, someone just e-mailed me looking for a freebie!

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:42 AM): There's no shortage of freeloaders on the web

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:42 AM): I'm thinking of pulling my search engines ebook all together.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:43 AM): Anita, you may want to rethink your strategy, too. Maybe price the e-book to get something out of the freeloaders, but save your real services for those more serious players.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:43 AM): Anita, listen up to this: In Year One, I kept a free archive of FrankelTips. No more. Now, I publish every ten articles as a $14.95 e-book. THAT'S where the freebie seekers go.

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:44 AM): Is giving away free reports a good idea?

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:44 AM): But no matter what you do, you do have to merchandise the e-book.

Skip Pratt ( (6/24/2002 9:44 AM): We have done over 200 free SEO reports in the last 5 months: 1 deal came from it, and it was for $1,500...

Skip Pratt ( (6/24/2002 9:45 AM): I mean, as in ranking reports...

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:45 AM): Because, in my ezine, I am doing a series on Search Engine Submission scams.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:45 AM): Anita, yes, it works as long as it doesn't cost you a lot and promotes the need for your services in an ethical way. I should tell you that when I tested my free ebook a while back, I got thousands of downloads, but not one cent of revenue/affiliate revenue.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:45 AM): Anita, a free e-book on the Top Ten SEO scams would be good. I like that. And it's something the freebies would download in a heartbeat

Skip Pratt ( (6/24/2002 9:46 AM): That's great info Anita...

Skip Pratt ( (6/24/2002 9:46 AM): Anita: here's a tip we've learned from experience....

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:46 AM): But you've got to wake up your site, too. Get graphical with it. Wake up your visitors.

Lyman Stucky (6/24/2002 9:47 AM): Anita, just exactly what do you offer? Your Unique Selling Proposition--which is different and better than anyone else, for your highly-targeted prospect profile? (Archeologies? Museums? Creationists? Evolutionists? Who else is somehow related to your areas of expertise that might be a prospect for your specialized knowledge? Hopefully your offer links your personal core competencies, your passions and experience with real needs of your targeted clients.) These are buzzwords but they became buzzwords because they do communicate key concepts....

Skip Pratt ( (6/24/2002 9:47 AM): We now position our seo services only to the marketing depts. of legit companies...

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:47 AM): Skip's on it. After a while, it gets really frustrating pitching the same story to people who have no intention of paying.

Skip Pratt ( (6/24/2002 9:47 AM): we attempt to peel out a piece of their annual marketing budget, and show how seo has a more measurable ROI than regular advertising...and this is working...

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:48 AM): And THAT'S the problem with small and microbusinesses, Anita. Which is why I've migrated to paid services for small businesses, but offer low-priced downloads to micro-businesses. They won't pay the other rates.

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:48 AM): I am doing the same with small business when I network.

Skip Pratt ( (6/24/2002 9:49 AM): because seo is really the most targeted advertising a company can do...

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:49 AM): The bigger businesses want to do SEO in-house.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:50 AM): The one thing I think is RIPE for targeting are the myth/truths about Pay per Lick Search Engines. A lot of people think they can simply buy their way to the top.

Skip Pratt ( (6/24/2002 9:50 AM): yes, the large ones, but the mid market firms, those with $5M to $200M in revs can't and won't do it in-house...

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:50 AM): Which, IMHO, is not good because they don't see the big picture.

Skip Pratt ( (6/24/2002 9:50 AM): over 100 million of those companies in the USA

Lyman Stucky (6/24/2002 9:50 AM): Monetizing....which comes back to my earlier article/ezine question...I have some great intro articles and the more advanced are pay-to-play.... Anybody else have ideas on where to submit free articles, for now? Not fluff, serious value. Anyone here have an Associated Press, UPI, Reuters or other newswire subscription, BTW?

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:50 AM): Anita, the biggest businesses also think they can do their own branding in-house. But they can't. Our job is to elegantly show them why.

Elizabeth (6/24/2002 9:50 AM): Pay Per Lick ... tee hee

Lyman Stucky (6/24/2002 9:51 AM): Lollipop Search engines...

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:51 AM): Lyman, I'll e-mail you with other suggestions.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:51 AM): Elizabeth, I must be downloading too much free porn MPG's.....

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:52 AM): (TEN MINUTE WARNING)

Skip Pratt ( (6/24/2002 9:52 AM): we just landed a deal with a consumer products food maker....we convinced them we can take 90% of their ad budget online and grow their biz faster than any print or radio ads....

Lyman Stucky (6/24/2002 9:52 AM): Thx, Anita, look forward to it....

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:52 AM): Nice shootin' Skip!

Lyman Stucky (6/24/2002 9:52 AM): Skip, congrats.

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:52 AM): Skip, I'm not sure how to approach the mid-size firms.

Skip Pratt ( (6/24/2002 9:53 AM): my last comment then I'll shut up...Anita, you've got to redirect your audience's thinking about seo, and put together a ROI message they can measure....

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:53 AM): In Google now, my ebooks page is ranking higher than the main page.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:53 AM): Anita, BEFORE you approach anyone, realize that they're going to hit your site first thing after -- or during -- the call. make sure your site is ready.

Lorilyn Bailey ( (6/24/2002 9:54 AM): Entered the room.

Skip Pratt ( (6/24/2002 9:54 AM): Hey Lorilyn, love your sites so much, I've included them in my new ebook!

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:55 AM): Skip is right on. This is what I do too. I show them how branding lowers customer acquisition costs and increases end user transactions. Most of them think branding is only about 'awareness." By bringing ROI into the discussion is a demonstrable way, it shows that you care about THEIR business, not just yours.

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:55 AM): I don't mean to hog the last few chats...

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:56 AM): In fact, part of the i-legions pitch is sending an Excel spreadsheet pro forma showing them exactly what kind of revenue to expect in real numbers.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:56 AM): Anita, this is what we're here for. If anyone wants to jump in, they will

Lorilyn Bailey ( (6/24/2002 9:56 AM): Entered the room.

Lyman Stucky (6/24/2002 9:57 AM): Any other brainstorms re: where to submit articles online always appreciated.... thanks all.

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:57 AM): Skip, can I contact you via e-mail?

Elizabeth (6/24/2002 9:57 AM): OK a quickie, Rob you think a service like Patrick Kilhoffer's can work, right?

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:57 AM): TWO MINUTES

Skip Pratt ( (6/24/2002 9:57 AM): sure!

Lorilyn Bailey ( (6/24/2002 9:57 AM): Skip, WOW, thanks!

Anita ( (6/24/2002 9:57 AM): Lyman,

Lorilyn Bailey ( (6/24/2002 9:57 AM): Skip, what is the name of your book?

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:57 AM): Elizabeth, I think so. Patrick does everything he can to make deals work.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:58 AM): I've referred Patrick to a number of people.

Lorilyn Bailey ( (6/24/2002 9:58 AM): Skip, my sites are in several print books, and I need to start making a list. :)

Elizabeth (6/24/2002 9:58 AM): I'm taking another run at working with him. last time we made things too complicated on our end

Skip Pratt ( (6/24/2002 9:58 AM): Lorilyn, no your concept...hope to sign up one day soon....

Skip Pratt ( (6/24/2002 9:58 AM): Patrick who?

Elizabeth (6/24/2002 9:58 AM): Instead of just going for it and seeing where he can get us.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:59 AM): Elizabeth, I've learned a lot from Patrick about sales, too. He's a wise person. A thinker.

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 9:59 AM): You should remember, though, that his job is to prequalify leads for you. You still have to do the follow up and selling

Elizabeth (6/24/2002 9:59 AM): Patrick's at

Skip Pratt ( (6/24/2002 9:59 AM): Lorilyn, I've created a "shell" ebook aimed at solo types of professionals, with the first iteration aimed at realtors....

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 10:00 AM): Work very hard on the script and your follow ups. Those are key. I goofed mine up at first.

Elizabeth (6/24/2002 10:00 AM): We've added some sales people that can do that so perhaps now is the time.

Elizabeth (6/24/2002 10:00 AM): Thanks for the scripting suggestion

Rob Frankel ( (6/24/2002 10:00 AM): Okay, folks, a lot of good help here today. Really nice. Thanks for the input and I'll see you online!

Anita ( (6/24/2002 10:00 AM): bye!

Lorilyn Bailey ( (6/24/2002 10:00 AM): Skip, thanks for making my day. :)

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