Transcript of Frankel's Free Clinic July 12, 1999

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:02 AM): Entered the room.

Guy (7/12/99 9:03 AM): Much better Kathleen.

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:03 AM): Whoa, sorry I'm late everyone. How ya doing? Who's first?

Kathleen ( (7/12/99 9:03 AM): okay, thanks for the tip

So, what's on the table today? (7/12/99 9:03 AM): Entered the room.

Guy (7/12/99 9:04 AM): I would like to announce my online chat that starts right after this ends

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:05 AM): Uh-oh, whoever logged on as "So," log off and log back on.

Clayton( (7/12/99 9:05 AM): On what? Guy- Where?

Guy (7/12/99 9:05 AM): and discuss ways to promote it too.

Guy (7/12/99 9:05 AM): It is on, starts at 2pm EST and is called Web Developers

So, what's on the table today? (7/12/99 9:06 AM): hi, Terri, how's it going?!

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:06 AM): Well, Guy, give the URL so that people can go there... (7/12/99 9:07 AM): Entered the room.

Glenda( (7/12/99 9:07 AM): Rob, I have a question...I'm looking to expand into some other projects, namely advertising directories, particularly city guides and wondering if you could provide some good resources and advise on how to proceed? Should I conduct a survey of online directory usage first?

Guy (7/12/99 9:07 AM): is the URL, it's a community to join and network in. (7/12/99 9:07 AM): accidentally had two windows open (sorry!)

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:08 AM): Glenda, are you on the advertising discussion lists?

Glenda( (7/12/99 9:08 AM): No, Rob I'm not...can you recommend a few?

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:08 AM): On-line Ads, IADL are two great places to begin.

Guy (7/12/99 9:10 AM): Glenda you have a good idea with your city guide, keeping local focus is part of my new project called Just for Kitsap, that's the county in WA where I live.

Glenda( (7/12/99 9:10 AM): Thank You Rob

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:10 AM): O-A is available for subscription at IADL is available through

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:11 AM): Both are frequented by ad professionals and by participating, you're reaching about 10,000+ ad people

Glenda( (7/12/99 9:12 AM): Thank You Guy, I believe it is a good idea also...eager to get started, but not all that experienced with print or media advertising, I'm in ad specialties at the moment and looking to expand my services.

Glenda( (7/12/99 9:13 AM): Thank You again Rob, I'll visit those as soon as we're finished here.

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:13 AM): Bear in mind that both lists are heavily skewed toward onliners. Also, you should try

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:13 AM): That's the BEST listing (although not always up to date) listing of marketing lists.

Jacob (7/12/99 9:13 AM): Entered the room.

Guy (7/12/99 9:14 AM): A current buzzword to search on is "synchronized marketing" a joining of off-line and online marketing.

Jacob (7/12/99 9:14 AM): Hello, sorry for my late showing this beautiful Monday morning.

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:14 AM): Yeesh, how many more buzzwords before somebody gets serious?!?!?

Guy (7/12/99 9:14 AM): Rob if someone logs into the chat without a URL do they then have to buy a round of drinks?

Glenda( (7/12/99 9:15 AM): LOL@Rob...thanks Guy (7/12/99 9:15 AM): Mimosa for me!

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:15 AM): NO, because that would mean I have to buy the drinks.....

Guy (7/12/99 9:15 AM): It might be that buzzword is someone trying to "invent" a word to establish credibility, but it's a good concept to explore

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:16 AM): Guy, it's nothing more than good old fashioned "brand consistency". I mean, what are you going to do -- NOT use the same message in different media?

Raynay( (7/12/99 9:17 AM): Entered the room.

Clayton( (7/12/99 9:17 AM): I'll take a virtual Martini!

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:17 AM): Most latter-day know-it-alls invent someone buzzword to give their careers a, um, Big Time Branding....Yeah, that's it!

Raynay( (7/12/99 9:17 AM): Hello, everyone. I've got a question...

Guy (7/12/99 9:17 AM): Rob, in some ways writing for the web is different than say radio copy, or TV, the web is one to one and interactive.

Jacob (7/12/99 9:18 AM): Nothing wrong with trying to invent buzzwords, its an attempt to make yourself stand out.

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:18 AM): Go ahead Raynay...

Raynay( (7/12/99 9:19 AM): I've been doing consulting -- helping small businesses get online with website creation and training. I was training someone in using HTML when they asked me about website promotion.

Raynay( (7/12/99 9:20 AM): I felt that was off-topic and very valuable info. How do I charge for this?

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:20 AM): How do you usually charge?

Raynay( (7/12/99 9:21 AM): I was charging by the hour.

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:21 AM): The first thing you do is stick to your niche. Website promotion is NOT your gig, but it IS a very specialized discipline.

Glenda( (7/12/99 9:21 AM): Are you considering making a web promotion package available to your clients Raynay?

Raynay( (7/12/99 9:21 AM): How to get people to your website is more valuable than how to use HTML.

Raynay( (7/12/99 9:22 AM): Doncha think?

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:22 AM): I'd suggest doing what I do: I offer the service to my clients, by use an outside source to do it. I charge for monitoring their work, not doing it.

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:22 AM): I do this with full disclosure, of course. But it's important to let the client know that these are two very different tasks. SEO takes a whole lot more time. (7/12/99 9:23 AM): Sticking to your niche is what I think FrankelBiz is all about. Sort of like a TIPS group, but nationwide... Isn't it?

Raynay( (7/12/99 9:23 AM): SEO?

Jacob (7/12/99 9:23 AM): That way you could also make money by getting a referral fee from the other company, making money on both ends.

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:23 AM): Raynay, you are confusing your clients. Do one or the other. Html is REAL important if you're a designer.

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:23 AM): Search Engine Optimization. Important buzzword....

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:24 AM): Jacob is right. The idea here is to make money, not advance the cause of the web.

Guy (7/12/99 9:24 AM): Oh no, not another buzzword... (7/12/99 9:24 AM): Is there a dictionary of buzzwords out there?

Kathleen ( (7/12/99 9:24 AM): Outsourcing!! OUT is IN!! My company is an outsourcing firm.

Jacob (7/12/99 9:24 AM): Something I learnt a while ago- if you give the impression of doing everything then you give the impression of doing nothing really really well. No specialty!

Glenda( (7/12/99 9:24 AM): But most of the How To's of website promotion are available for free or as info products on the web. Wouldn't it be better to offer a "I'll do it for you service"? Like search engine submission, etc.

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:25 AM): Actually, Benjamin of Meep Media actually collected them in a book and created BuzzwordBingo that got a lot of media attention.

Guy (7/12/99 9:25 AM): Jacob, that's when you get testimonials from results to off set that.

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:25 AM): Correct again, Jacob. put yourself in your client's place. What else you gonna do for them, wash their dishes? Shine their shoes? (7/12/99 9:26 AM): but any book is always about 6-12 months out of date, simply by the fact that it's paper media...

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:26 AM): Glenda, the free services only take you so far. If your clients are that small, point them toward those free services and let them try to save money by doing it themselves. They'll be back once they try it, with checks in hand.

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:27 AM): But SEO is a bear of a task. Unless you're really into it, you can't make money on it. Better to hand it off to a SEO company, get a fee and look like a hero to your clients.

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:28 AM): Jacob's other point is also correct: you look way more professional when you hand off a piece of business to a specialist. The specialist loves you and the client sees you sacrificing potential bucks for his interests.

Guy (7/12/99 9:28 AM): Speaking of SEO, my sites stats are now shifting to LYCOS being my number 1 referrer, beating YAHOO (7/12/99 9:29 AM): Entered the room. (7/12/99 9:29 AM): I really believe in referrals. I even have a special referral link on my site.

Glenda( (7/12/99 9:29 AM): Handing off could also include a referral fee from the specialist, no?

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:29 AM): Perfect example, Guy. Has anyone gotten their listings up on yahoo? My test listings were put in months ago and still aren't coming up...proving my point.

Clayton( (7/12/99 9:29 AM): Really, Guy?

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:30 AM): You bet, Glenda. Even more importantly, it works the other way: SEO specialists might refer their HTML work to you.

Guy (7/12/99 9:30 AM): Testimonials are the STRONGEST message too.

Guy (7/12/99 9:30 AM): Yes, Clayton, the webtrends report is public.

Glenda( (7/12/99 9:31 AM): I haven't been able to get a site listing in Lycos (7/12/99 9:31 AM): I give away a substantial chunk of money for referrals... but I expect the sale to be sold. I'm not paying for a name and phone number, I'm paying for a LEAD!

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:32 AM): The best referral network is with brand-compatible, non-competing allies. Someone who plugs in to your business, has a similar way of doing business as you. That make the team effort run more smoothly.

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:34 AM): That's why I keep about three vendors per segment in my hip pocket. Often what's right for one vendor would be disaster for another, based on personality alone.

Jacob (7/12/99 9:34 AM): If you define what you specialize in then you can find others who specialize in synergistic services and establish referrer relationships with them. Everyone wins.

Jacob (7/12/99 9:34 AM): That's almost exactly how I have seen FrankelBiz from day one. (7/12/99 9:35 AM): Rob, is there any directory of services offered by FrankelBees out there?

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:36 AM): No, JoAnna, you simply have to throw out your post and hope someone catches it.

Raynay( (7/12/99 9:36 AM): Are you all finding that the search engines are bringing you business (not just traffic)?

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:36 AM): It's done that way on purpose

Jacob (7/12/99 9:36 AM): It's also how I have used the mailing list, just two days ago I posted a brand new service that I am offering after teaming up with a specialist in his field (SirTextalot). He will do what he does best and I will do what I do best.

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:37 AM): No, Raynay. I actually get a lot from Alta Vista, but most stuff comes from referring links and reprints of my articles, which is the stealth way of getting out there.

Jacob (7/12/99 9:37 AM): And the response already has been great, people have really taken to this new service. (7/12/99 9:38 AM): Hello all. I have a question that I would like to ask. A friend of mine has a property management company. Their slogan is good property management doesn't cost, it pays. What do you all think of this? Is it too general

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:39 AM): WAAAAAAY too general, David. That's a tag line for the INDUSTRY, not your client.

Jacob (7/12/99 9:39 AM): I agree, that won't make me remember his company at all. (7/12/99 9:39 AM): Any suggestions? (7/12/99 9:39 AM): I haven't gotten business from search engines, Raynay... I turn away most business when it's not local businesses. (nature of HR consulting)

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:40 AM): Of course. And the first one is to find out why your client's company is a better solution for his clients than other competitors.

Glenda( (7/12/99 9:40 AM): Most all my online sales have come through Yahoo

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:42 AM): Only then can you even begin to construct a real brand for him. (7/12/99 9:42 AM): Thank you Rob. I will have them figure out what it is that makes them better before their next meeting. BTW I just wanted to say that I know JoAnna and she definitely has a valuable service (7/12/99 9:44 AM): There's my testimonial! Thanks, David!!! :-)

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:44 AM): David, if you're the consultant, YOU'LL figure it out FOR them and then guide them to a branding solution. Make it a team thing.

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:45 AM): BTW, is anyone interested in advertising on pay per hit services like GOTO.COM? Anyone with results? (7/12/99 9:45 AM): Thanks, I am talking to them right now.

Jacob (7/12/99 9:46 AM): I have a lot of good things to say about Goto. (7/12/99 9:46 AM): I put in my money, and I got a lot of hits when it was "take our daughters to work" season!

Kathleen ( (7/12/99 9:46 AM): I don't know JoAnna, but, I know I modeled her SoCalNetworking idea to create HoustonNetworking. Great idea JoAnna. Thank You.

Guy (7/12/99 9:46 AM): I get the impression that GOTO is somewhat of an auction, in that the higher the pay the higher the ranking, which will squeeze out little guys er, companies

Jacob (7/12/99 9:46 AM): A client of mine just finished moving into a bigger office and doubling their staff because of the success of their GoTo advertising.

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:46 AM): Really? I haven't had much success that I can trace, although my budget runs out every month.... (7/12/99 9:47 AM): Kathleen, we should plug each others sites... let's talk offline!

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:47 AM): How did they know it was GOTO? And what business are they in?

Jacob (7/12/99 9:47 AM): I think the key is good descriptions and titles that you customize for each keyword.

Raynay( (7/12/99 9:47 AM): I get visitors but no business from Go To. Local papers do it for me.

Kathleen ( (7/12/99 9:48 AM): Okay

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:48 AM): Aha! ANOTHER FrankelBiz business connection! You go girls!

Jacob (7/12/99 9:48 AM): It's also good to get synergistic and psycho/demographical keywords, not just the obvious ones. (7/12/99 9:48 AM): Rob, I got a lot of HITS, but since I don't work with anyone outside of Calif. (socal for todtw) it's all wasted bandwidth.

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:49 AM): Yikes, JoAnna, you should be trapping those leads and referring them out to vendors for a fee! (7/12/99 9:49 AM): well, no exposure is wasted... but it's not making me any money yet

Guy (7/12/99 9:49 AM): I have heard before of the local service directory in the paper being a good ad location

Jacob (7/12/99 9:50 AM): They are in debt consolidation, credit card counseling, stuff like that. The goal of the site is to have people fill out the "inquiry form".

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:50 AM): You could become Queen of online HR! (7/12/99 9:50 AM): I'd happily make referrals-for-a-fee, but nobody wants to pay the fee!

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:50 AM): In fact, JoAnna, that's really the bigger money maker for you. You could retire doing nothing but referring HR to the right people. (7/12/99 9:51 AM): (I *AM* the queen of online HR... in California -- don't want to grow out of my britches!!)

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:51 AM): Sure, they'd pay if they saw a site that was well built and properly promoted. The biggest growth on the web is business to business, become they HAVE to buy.

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:51 AM): Get bigger britches.

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:52 AM): (NINE MINUTE WARNING) (7/12/99 9:52 AM): but Rob, how much fun / how much excitement would THAT be? I'd reduce myself to a search engine.

Glenda( (7/12/99 9:52 AM): I'd love to grow out my britches on the web...LOL (7/12/99 9:53 AM): Perhaps JoAnna when you get to that point you might want to come and talk with our Incubator at the All Internet Building

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:53 AM): Better a rich search engine (which you wouldn't be) than a small also-ran. You have the opportunity. Can you recognize it?

Jacob (7/12/99 9:53 AM): IF you could develop those relationships then you would have more free time to pursue other business ventures.

Glenda( (7/12/99 9:54 AM): I don't think you'd reduce yourself fact you'd expand your services, and still have the satisfaction of helping people by making those connections

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:54 AM): Forget the other ventures. You'd have a business that dominates the industry as a vital resource. It would be much more profitable for you, if you were willing to invest in it.

Clayton( (7/12/99 9:54 AM): Gotta Run! bye all!

Terri ( (7/12/99 9:55 AM): JoAnna, does referrals like that where they split the fee for placements all the time

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:55 AM): What satisfaction? How many HR people are there who need this service? (7/12/99 9:55 AM): THAT, David is my goal. to work with small companies. My work is really more philanthropic than work... but I still get paid. it's kind of cool!! (7/12/99 9:55 AM): thanks, Terri, I'll check it out!

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:55 AM): Seriously, I'd check out the competition and see if anything like this even exists yet. When you get tired of philanthropy, this will be the way to go.

Guy (7/12/99 9:56 AM): I am going to go, thanks to all, again very informative, have a great week...

Jacob (7/12/99 9:56 AM): That's the key Rob "willing to invest." Too many people are unwilling to invest in their own companies because it's on the net. In some areas people of think of the net totally wrong (the "if you build it they will BUY" thinking).

Terri ( (7/12/99 9:56 AM): you'll get to know very quickly which ones you don't want to work with *grin*

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:57 AM): I agree, Jacob. But big ideas are also very scary to most of us. (7/12/99 9:57 AM): Again, one hour of talking with intelligent people (for a change!) and my brain is buzzing with ideas!!!!!

Raynay( (7/12/99 9:58 AM): Thanks, everyone. (contemplative smile)

Jacob (7/12/99 9:58 AM): Big ideas are sources of excitement and potential, not fear!

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:58 AM): Atta girl! This is how the big stuff happens, joAnna. This is EXACTLY how was born..and they're funded with $20 million + today.

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:58 AM): ...and it started with a FrankelBee!

Jacob (7/12/99 9:58 AM): I am very excited about this new service I am offering, maximizing the promotional and persuasive nature of people's text.

RobFrankel (7/12/99 9:59 AM): (TWO MINUTES)

Jacob (7/12/99 9:59 AM): But most people ate admitting that the text they wrote sucks, so it's a touchy subject. (7/12/99 9:59 AM): Don't worry, Rob, I won't forget my roots!!! (7/12/99 10:00 AM): Jacob, contact me offline, later okay!?

RobFrankel (7/12/99 10:00 AM): Okay, folks, I have to get my driver's license renewed! So I gotta run, but feel free to stay and hang out. I'll see you online!

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