Loutherealtor (7/22/2002 8:59 AM): I'm a FrankelBee virgin and I'm looking forward to learning from everyone.

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 8:59 AM): Well, you'll definitely learn something today. I always do! Think of a question you want to ask Rob if you want to get the most out of it though :)

Yosef Rabinowitz (yosef@suddenvision.com) (7/22/2002 9:00 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:00 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:00 AM): Greetings!

Rob B (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/22/2002 9:01 AM): Hi Rob

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 9:01 AM): Morning Rob.

Tamra (www.HCstudios.com) (7/22/2002 9:01 AM): Morning Rob!

weber jajagroup (7/22/2002 9:01 AM): Entered the room.

Sharon (7/22/2002 9:01 AM): Hi Rob

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:01 AM): How's everyone doing today? Who's up first?

Lou Kujawski (7/22/2002 9:01 AM): Entered the room.

weber jajagroup (7/22/2002 9:01 AM): Yosef... so we meet again!

Frederick (bspage.com) (7/22/2002 9:02 AM): Entered the room.

Rob B (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/22/2002 9:02 AM): If no one

Rob B (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/22/2002 9:02 AM): If no one

Rob, how would you handle a global corporate identity effort that is facing regional dissent from one corner of the globe? (7/22/2002 9:03 AM): Entered the room.

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 9:04 AM): I see we have George Bush with us today :)

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:04 AM): Whoa, someone got caught in the server! Re-log on and we'll take this up right away.

Frederick (bspage.com) (7/22/2002 9:04 AM): Very clever, Peter

Rob, how would you handle a global corporate identity effort that is facing regional dissent from one corner of the globe? (7/22/2002 9:05 AM): Entered the room.

Lou Kujawski (7/22/2002 9:05 AM): Don't I feel a little small today.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:05 AM): Okay, the key issue here is, of course, lack of planning way back when the brand was first created.

Rob B (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/22/2002 9:06 AM): Entered the room.

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 9:06 AM): Isn't dissent a common problem when a company decides 'oh, let's "redo" our entire brand!' and then just push it on everyone else without discussion?

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:06 AM): The first thing that has to happen is identifying what the brand is and what the objections are. I'm going to bet, however, that the people who created the brand in the first place never took global expansion into account.

Rob B (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/22/2002 9:06 AM): okay, I'm back. sorry about that.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:06 AM): Lou, this is the same issue you face, only on a bigger scale. branding is branding, regardless of size.

Pat Hardy (phardy.com) (7/22/2002 9:07 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:07 AM): Peter, you bring up an excellent point, which was a big issue in a War Room Session I just did. The CEO needed to understand that the EXTERNAL application of the brand is less than half the battle. The INTERNAL buy in is critical, after all the front line troops have to become believers and evangelists.

Rob B (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/22/2002 9:08 AM): Part of the problem, the dissenter, is a designer who's just been outsourced but kept as the design resource for her region. Some in some ways, I think she's trying to mark her new territory.

Tamra (www.HCstudios.com) (7/22/2002 9:08 AM): Considering translation issues, how cultural meanings are different (for colors, images) aren't most brands going to run into some dissent somewhere? No matter how good the brand?

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:08 AM): Dissent, incidentally, is actually very healthy -- if you don't fear it. It's the best marketing input you can get!

weber jajagroup (7/22/2002 9:09 AM): It also causes you to really think thru what you are saying and truly justify it.

Lou Kujawski (7/22/2002 9:10 AM): Isn't branding more an issue of deciding to market to your favored niche, rather than to everybody?

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:10 AM): Rob Bennett, I believe you're probably right. NOBODY who specializes likes to have their discipline thrown into their face. In FrankelTips this morning, I refer to a group in which the meeting degenerates into a free for all of executives who decide to become copywriters and submit their own tag lines...Yeesh!

Rob B (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/22/2002 9:10 AM): I think dissent can be good if presented the right way.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:11 AM): Weber, you are correct. And that's so important, because it lets you know yourself if you're for real or BS'ing yourself, let alone everyone else!

Frederick (bspage.com) (7/22/2002 9:11 AM): Because of cultural differences, wouldn't it wise to have different 'brands' for different regions? Or is that not practical?

Rob B (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/22/2002 9:11 AM): Not when you work for the Germans.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:12 AM): Lou, you are correct. But you should realize it's not about market size, but more about appealing only to those who need your stuff. Why bother with anyone else? Global domination is not for anyone, although they dream about it.

Rob B (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/22/2002 9:12 AM): Honestly, though, what we working toward was a framework that would allow for regional variances but could still be used to cross-sell without looking like different companies.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:12 AM): Especially the Germans.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:13 AM): Okay, here's the deal with respect to Fred: Don't confuse names with brand. Phrasing can always be adapted to language; it's the brand ethic that translates universally

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:14 AM): Rob B, you can and should do that. But corporate types believe in "uniformity" and "Consistency" in a most literal sense. That doesn't apply, but they don't know that

Rob B (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/22/2002 9:14 AM): And how you translate that ethic visually?

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 9:14 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:14 AM): I guarantee that's what drove that dopey UPS "brown" campaign -- they probably figured a color is universal.

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 9:14 AM): Quit picking on the Germans ;-)

Rob B (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/22/2002 9:15 AM): I know that and you do, how do I educate them?

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:15 AM): I'm not picking on the Germans. I picking AT them....tee hee. Sorry, a Fawlty Towers habit.

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 9:16 AM): Just don't mention the war.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:16 AM): Rob B, that's a VERY heavy task. One that you cannot do alone. Educating the great unwashed -- especially when they're your internal team -- almost i never successful. It's the "a prophet is never heeded in his own land" syndrome. You simply have to bring in an outsider to show that it's not just you. They have to see "impartial" rationale.

Elizabeth (7/22/2002 9:16 AM): Entered the room.

Elizabeth (7/22/2002 9:17 AM): Rob, I read FrankelTips this AM and I gotta ask, how are you so sure that your idea wasn't just a bad one?

Rob B (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/22/2002 9:17 AM): Great, your hired. : ^ ) Of course, I'll need global committee approval before we can sign anything. : ^ )

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:18 AM): Rob B, this is ONE reason why I wrote my book. It's MUCH easier for someone like you to throw it at your people and say, "Read this and see if it makes sense." Totally removes the egos and more importantly, shifts the source of the argument to a third party.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:18 AM): Not selling here, just showing you a tactic. You might do the same with someone else's articles. The point is that in your case, just being an insider dooms you to political wrangling that all but kills your chances.

Rob B (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/22/2002 9:19 AM): Understand that all too clearly. Maybe I should quit and come back as a consultant. : ^ )

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:19 AM): Elizabeth, my idea was what they were paying me for. And the fact that they chose to ignore it didn't bother me, it was the fact that they went completely off track because of the political climate.

Lou Kujawski (7/22/2002 9:20 AM): It's the very same reason a homeowner should never price their own home for sale...

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:20 AM): Rob B, that's what a lot of folks do!

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:21 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:21 AM): Also, Elizabeth, what kind of decisions are made simply on the basis of "asking a few friends" who aren't even qualified to render an opinion? It's like asking your gardener if you agree that you should have your appendix removed.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:22 AM): A company worth billions shouldn't make bad decisions, neither should a garage start up.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:23 AM): Anyway, I hope you see that even if my idea were complete garbage, I would expect it to be rejected on some rational basis, not some personalized whim.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:23 AM): Anyone else?

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 9:23 AM): Or be organised in a way so that it is nimble enough to fix its mistakes (like Microsoft did in 1995 when they 'discovered' the Internet was the big thing and not their MS Network)

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:24 AM): Microsoft continues to make rotten decisions, tho.

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 9:24 AM): Yeah, but it can almost afford to. The DOJ are down their neck for being too successful ;-)

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:25 AM): Actually, Rob, the same thing happened to me just recently (the bad decision).

Tamra (www.HCstudios.com) (7/22/2002 9:25 AM): I have a question about developing a new name for a design firm. What's the best way to start brainstorming a new name? (I have a long story about how we got our name. It happened to us, rather than us choosing it.)

Rob B (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/22/2002 9:25 AM): No, the DOJ is down their neck because they monopolized the market and pressured computer makers to use Explorer.

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 9:25 AM): Did anyone hear how that FatFriar guy was going?

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:25 AM): Go ahead Tamra

Elizabeth (7/22/2002 9:25 AM): I'm just playing devils advocate here, not knowing either the co. or the idea

weber jajagroup (7/22/2002 9:26 AM): Hey, it's just about sex, not lying under oath.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:26 AM): There is a group in Idea Cafe that brainstorms names.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:26 AM): The best way to brainstorm a name is to NOT use a dictionary or a thesaurus. If a name or idea doesn't occur to you naturally, it won't click with anyone naturally, either. It means it's not part of the public culture.

Tamra (www.HCstudios.com) (7/22/2002 9:27 AM): Names -- are design firms expected to have creative names? Do businesses prefer to hire companies that have corporate sounding names?

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 9:27 AM): What's 'Idea Cafe', Anita?

Joe (7/22/2002 9:27 AM): Entered the room.

Lou Kujawski (7/22/2002 9:27 AM): Darn it! I've spent the last 4 days in my thesaurus.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:27 AM): And of course, it stems from the brand strategy. Personally, I believe that very few "creative names" suit the service industry. Most people don't want playful; they want professional

weber jajagroup (7/22/2002 9:27 AM): Rob, I have to disagree. A thesaurus can spark creativity in choosing a name.

Rob B (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/22/2002 9:27 AM): I think businesses prefer to hire businesses that do good work, provide excellent customer service...no matter what there name is.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:28 AM): IdeaCafe.com is a great site for small businesses.

Joe (7/22/2002 9:28 AM): joe@rapidresultsmarketing.com

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 9:28 AM): Tamra has a good point. I'd like to throw in.. does having a company name that describes what you do help? (i.e. 'Fred's Design Company', vs.. 'Quadaranga')

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 9:28 AM): Anita: Thanks, I'll check it out!

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:28 AM): Weber, it might. But what it usually sparks is some sort of wordplay, and great names don't rely on pus, they rely on concept, which you don't find in those books.

Tamra (www.HCstudios.com) (7/22/2002 9:29 AM): But if it's part of the public culture, it seems to be overused (as a company name I mean). We mostly do web design -- everybody and their neighbor is something or other Web Wizards, Joe's Design Palace, etc.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:29 AM): Descriptive names do not seem to matter as much.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:29 AM): Tamra, if everyone is doing, that's good enough reason not to do what everyone else is doing. Again, why not use your brand strategy as the guiding influence?

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 9:29 AM): Actually, thinking about it.. Rob himself uses a non descriptive business name. :)

Lou Kujawski (7/22/2002 9:30 AM): Doesn't the brand or tagline have to appeal emotionally?

weber jajagroup (7/22/2002 9:30 AM): Rob, I agree with that. The point is to generate free thinking for the name or phrase, or whatever.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:30 AM): A good company that does databases (backend) is called Avencom.

Frederick (bspage.com) (7/22/2002 9:30 AM): For company names, I always favor tell it like it is - my design firm is called the 1960 Website Builder (1960 referring to the area of town I work in)

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:30 AM): Actually, Rob himself uses Rob Frankel, because that's the one thing nobody else can duplicate. It's the "only solution" thing again.

Lou Kujawski (7/22/2002 9:31 AM): Avencom says nothing to me about what the company does.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:31 AM): Lou, the tagline does have to appeal non-rationally, but we're talking about the name....

Tamra (www.HCstudios.com) (7/22/2002 9:31 AM): Our current brand strategy is that we're the specialists in "headache-free" web development. But that hasn't really lead to a good company name (since we don't want to be confused with Tylenol)

Rob B (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/22/2002 9:31 AM): Does that mean 'Monday' will work or is too generic to be effective?

Joe (7/22/2002 9:31 AM): I like a brand that telegraphs immediately what they do...like Barbecues Galore. I get it immediately. I don't have to "Decode" it

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 9:31 AM): Rob: I have to ask.. Is there an 'Anderson'? Or is that something you added for effect?

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:31 AM): I also use my own name because it's a stark contrast to my competitors, half of whom use dopey names and others who puff up as big companies.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:32 AM): Monday is way too generic.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:32 AM): Monday is a huge joke perpetrated on a bunch of accountants and consultants who got taken for a ride.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:32 AM): peter, There WAS an Anderson.

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 9:33 AM): About using your own name.. I like that. If I saw two stores, one called 'Best Records' and one called "Joe's Record Store" and JOE WAS ACTUALLY IN THE STORE, then I'd rather go there.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:33 AM): But, how would you know if Joe was there?

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 9:34 AM): I'd say that's the true branding challenge ;-)

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:34 AM): It is not just the name, but also the marketing strategy.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:34 AM): Anita, that's not the point. IF it appeals to you that Joe WOULD be there, that means you prefer a smaller, more personal store and that's the one you would choose.

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 9:35 AM): Yeah, they could have stuff like.. 'If you find a CD cheaper elsewhere, come -speak to Joe- and he'll give you 10% discount' etc.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:35 AM): Peter, regarding Anderson:When I bought Anderson out of Frankel & Anderson, I asked him what he wanted. He said, "Let's split the money in the checking account." I said, "Are you sure? Is that enough?" He said, "Yes."

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:35 AM): So I told him, "Okay, take that...and here's $5,000 more."

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:35 AM): And he said, "What's that for?"

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:35 AM): I told him, "Years from now, when I build this company into a six or seven figures net worth, I want to be able to tell people I paid you more than you thought it was worth."

Joe (7/22/2002 9:35 AM): the problem with using a name like "Joe's Record Store" is it's about Joe, and not a customer centric benefit

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:35 AM): And to this day, I do.

weber jajagroup (7/22/2002 9:35 AM): Tamra, at the risk of getting "Yelled at" why not call it headache-free" web design. You can use a couple of aspirin tablets with you name in them as your logo.

Tamra (www.HCstudios.com) (7/22/2002 9:36 AM): When we used our names as the company name *all* clients thought they were hiring a single person as a temp employee -- not a two-person team. Caused all sorts of billing hassles as well as hassles, process hassles.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:36 AM): Tamra, it all begins with your brand strategy. Once you get that hammered out, the name will almost write itself.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:37 AM): Altho, for me the name came before the strategy.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:37 AM): Tamra, do you have a brand strategy? Doesn't have to be clever...just boring and very clear.

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 9:37 AM): Rob: And, to close that story off, has he created a business as good as yours with his share? ;-)

Tamra (www.HCstudios.com) (7/22/2002 9:37 AM): Weber, I use aspirin in our postcards and other print graphics, especially when talking about how we can fix this or that headache.

weber jajagroup (7/22/2002 9:38 AM): I don't see it related to HCstudios

Tamra (www.HCstudios.com) (7/22/2002 9:38 AM): Rob, we say that we're the friendly experts who can fix your project headaches.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:38 AM): No, Peter, he's still an art director somewhere...

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 9:38 AM): You know.. I think -illustrations- really work well when you want to put across what you do, how you do it, and how the customer benefits. Beats dry text any day, IMHO.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:39 AM): Tamra, if you're "fix it" types, that suggests that you’re crisis people, not overall designers.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:39 AM): You can't illustrate what I do, though.

Tamra (www.HCstudios.com) (7/22/2002 9:39 AM): Weber, I don't use it on the web, because we had several current clients go to our site (with that imagery) and call us to let us know that some drug company had stolen our domain name....

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 9:39 AM): Anita: No? SEO, right?

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:40 AM): Peter, yes.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:40 AM): Peter, I used to think that, too, but now I realize that people go to the web to seek solutions, and want to read about the solution before they buy.

Tamra (www.HCstudios.com) (7/22/2002 9:40 AM): Fix it is what we end up doing -- clients come back to us after some other designer screws everything up!

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:40 AM): Tamra, how about HFstudios (as in Headache free)?

Frederick (bspage.com) (7/22/2002 9:41 AM): HC could stand for Headache Control

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:41 AM): Tamra, I get that kind of business, too, in my own field. But I do not brand myself as the "brand doctor" that fixes stuff others screw up.

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 9:42 AM): Anita: It's not exactly your market, but you might want to look at: http://xplane.com/xplanations/differentiate/heybridge/solution_b.gif . It shows how a rather abstract technical process can be illustrated.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:42 AM): Tamra, you have to decide what it is you want to lead with, then develop a brand strategy around that and THEN work on a name.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:42 AM): Web Garage is out of business.

Tamra (www.HCstudios.com) (7/22/2002 9:42 AM): The problem with HF is the same as HC -- hard to say on the phone, easy to type wrong, and can make up all sorts of non-nice things it could also stand for.

Lou Kujawski (7/22/2002 9:42 AM): I think you should drop the headache thing all together because the mere mention of a headache makes me uncomfortable and therefore less likely to use the company.

weber jajagroup (7/22/2002 9:42 AM): the brand doctor sounds really hokey.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:43 AM): Perhaps you could grab that domain.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:43 AM): My point exactly, Weber and Lou: a "joke" or "wordplay" name gets really old really fast.

Elizabeth (7/22/2002 9:43 AM): I hear you Tamara: L&E International has the same problem!

Rob B (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/22/2002 9:44 AM): Maybe you need to refocus your brand message, away from headaches to being a partner

Tamra (www.HCstudios.com) (7/22/2002 9:44 AM): Lou, our existing clients love it. Say it's exactly how the process went with us. So, it does have meaning...just may not be the direction we want to go in to grow the business, more of an advertising pitch for certain clients.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:44 AM): I like the headache-free idea.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:45 AM): Let's make sure you don't confuse a clever ad campaign with a brand. You can always junk a bad ad campaign, but a brand has to last forever and continually grow.

Lou Kujawski (7/22/2002 9:45 AM): But, If a new brand could increase the number of clients exponentially, then you should consider an alternative.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:46 AM): Remember, the brand is the reason that people evangelize you.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:46 AM): Lou, remember: First you create the brand, then you raise the brand's awareness through advertising and PR.

Rob B (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/22/2002 9:46 AM): I think the point here is that you, and company are the brand. Not your tagline. That's what you are needing to express?

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:47 AM): They're NOT the same. Although most people confuse them

Lou Kujawski (7/22/2002 9:47 AM): My wife always tells me that the people that love me will tell me anything.

Tamra (www.HCstudios.com) (7/22/2002 9:47 AM): What about the "friendly expert" part -- that's part of what folks have been saying about us for years....

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:47 AM): Right Rob B

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:47 AM): Rob, I'd like to bat around an idea, next.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:47 AM): You have a smart wife there Lou.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:48 AM): If our mothers were our clients, we'd all be millionaires.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:48 AM): Go Anita.

Lou Kujawski (7/22/2002 9:48 AM): That one was for Tamara.

Sharon (7/22/2002 9:49 AM): no we wouldn't be millionaires you have never met my mother Rob LOL

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:49 AM): Rob, I'm still working out the ebook that was suggested here several weeks ago. May I ask the group about it?

weber jajagroup (7/22/2002 9:49 AM): Tamra, I wouldn't use that as a company name. Expert at what?

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:49 AM): Sharon, there's always a wisenheimer in every crowd.....<G>

Tamra (www.HCstudios.com) (7/22/2002 9:50 AM): Lou, good point...I also want to appeal to folks who don't already love me don't I?

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:50 AM): Sure, Anita, that's what we're here for.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:51 AM): (TEN MINUTE WARNING)

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:51 AM): The ebook will be on top search engine marketing scams. does anyone here have any pet peeves about this?

Rob B (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/22/2002 9:51 AM): Pet peeves about e-books or the scams?

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 9:51 AM): Entered the room.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:51 AM): Search Engine Marketing = SEO.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:51 AM): 1. People who promise traffic not realizing that unqualified traffic is useless

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:52 AM): 2. People who insist the Seo is the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:52 AM): The scams, not ebooks.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:52 AM): 3. People who don't understand that SEO works differently for different categories

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 9:52 AM): My first question has to be.. why a book on search engine scams? People who want to promote their Web site are more interested in reading how-to guides rather than 'what could go wrong' guides (especially if they have to pay)

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:53 AM): 4. People who "guarantee results" with a million disclaimers in mouse type

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:53 AM): 5. Consultants who can't admit that they couldn't improve on the current situation

weber jajagroup (7/22/2002 9:54 AM): Peter, you learn two ways, your mistakes or someone else’s mistakes. It's cheaper to learn from someone else’s.

Sharon (7/22/2002 9:54 AM): i agree with peter maybe try the truth and nothing but the truth about Search Engine Marketing kind of approach I would take

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:54 AM): Yes, but why not show them what to watch for?

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:54 AM): 6. People who can't even remotely show the ROI on their services. You have no idea how many people pitch me on Seo and other services, but can't tell me how it will build my business. traffic, yes, but not business.

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 9:55 AM): I agree, but negative information is always far harder to sell than positive information, even if it is genuinely useful.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:55 AM): The book will have the truth as well as the scam.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:55 AM): I wouldn't. I'd go after the UNTRUTHS that you see being peddled out there and expose them

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:55 AM): That's the news worth reading.

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 9:55 AM): An e-book on search engine marketing scams would be better as a freebie/teaser to get someone to check out your business and to use you for SEO work. Is that the aim?

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:55 AM): It also carries the value of you being the messenger of truth, and thus builds your credibility

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:55 AM): I plan to name names, and show others how to see when it is a scam.

Lou Kujawski (7/22/2002 9:56 AM): Good one Rob!!!

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:56 AM): Peter in this case, the negatives are OTHER PEOPLE'S negatives, which Anita is straightening out for them with the truth.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:56 AM): Anita, be careful about using names. This is lawyer country.

weber jajagroup (7/22/2002 9:56 AM): I'd be VERY careful about naming names, unless you have tons of money to throw at lawyers.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:57 AM): Yes, peter, that would be the aim of the ebook

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:57 AM): What about naming web sites?

Tamra (www.HCstudios.com) (7/22/2002 9:57 AM): Anita, watch out with the naming names -- several of the SEO forum moderators have been threatened with lawsuits for calling folks on bad tactics....

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:57 AM): I have already started an expose series in my ezine.

weber jajagroup (7/22/2002 9:57 AM): Go ahead. Make a lawyer rich. uh I mean richer.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:57 AM): Anita, I wouldn't name any name, but I'd talk around them. I’d stay with the issue: the scams, not the people perpetrating them

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:58 AM): (TWO MINUTES)

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 9:58 AM): I agree, stick to the content and not names.. I read that SitePoint discussion you were in ;-)

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:58 AM): Ok, so no names.

Lou Kujawski (7/22/2002 9:58 AM): Anita, it will give you an air of respectability.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 9:59 AM): Yeah, that author was pretty upset. But since an entire chapter was devoted to cloaking, I knew I was on solid ground.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 9:59 AM): NO names, just tactics. And for creativity's sake, you can coin your own names for recognizable scams. I love doing that. It's really fun and makes the reading enjoyable.

weber jajagroup (7/22/2002 9:59 AM): Describe the tactics used to cheat the company. Call the scammy company "Company A"

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (7/22/2002 10:00 AM): Yeah, my point is, judging without actually seeing the content (rather than just a 'table of contents') is a bit hasty *g*

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 10:00 AM): Okay, everyone, a big week ahead. Let's get out there and rattle some cages. I'll see you online!

weber jajagroup (7/22/2002 10:00 AM): Rob, I like that idea. You can really make the scam companies laughable.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 10:00 AM): But, you remember, he would give ANYONE a review copy.

Frederick (bspage.com) (7/22/2002 10:01 AM): Thanks Rob and all - Make lots of money!

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 10:01 AM): Weber, it's always good to use humor. Lightens the load.

Sharon (7/22/2002 10:01 AM): k rob going to call mother ask why I am not a millionaire =)

Tamra (www.HCstudios.com) (7/22/2002 10:01 AM): Thanks for the tips Rob and everyone. See you all next week!

Rob B (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/22/2002 10:01 AM): Bye everyone. Have a great week!

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 10:01 AM): Me too!

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/22/2002 10:01 AM): Ok, I'm outta here. Gotta feed the cats.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/22/2002 10:01 AM): I mean, I'm also going to call your mother....

weber jajagroup (7/22/2002 10:02 AM): take care

Sharon (7/22/2002 10:02 AM): good rob can use all the help i can get till next time