Transcript of Frankel's Free Clinic July 27, 1998

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:00 AM): Entered the room.

techteam (7/27/98 9:00 AM): greetings all from the home of the "500"

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:00 AM): Greetings. The chat is an HTML chat, which relies on a screen refresh every 20 seconds.

Ira Pasternack (7/27/98 9:00 AM): Entered the room.

jojo (7/27/98 9:00 AM): Entered the room.

Carole (7/27/98 9:00 AM): Entered the room.

jojo (7/27/98 9:01 AM): good morning everyone!

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:01 AM): You'll see, Carole, that it's the same speed at 5, 15 or 50.

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:01 AM): Hey, folks, what's happening this morning? Who's on first?

Carole (7/27/98 9:02 AM): Hi Rob! Finally - I get to talk to you "live"

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:02 AM): Better than talking to me dead, eh?

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:02 AM): Yeah Team, do you have a real name?

techteam (7/27/98 9:03 AM): sometimes, depending on how my wife feels,, Larry

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:03 AM): Oops. That shoulda been "tech team"...

Lynn (7/27/98 9:03 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:04 AM): And out of Indiana, I imagine. What do you do there?

jojo (7/27/98 9:04 AM): I thought you were butchering peoples names on purpose, RF

Carole (7/27/98 9:04 AM): Sorry - what is the home of the "500"?

Tina Thomas (7/27/98 9:05 AM): Entered the room.

Tina Thomas (7/27/98 9:05 AM): Howdy All!

techteam (7/27/98 9:05 AM): we're multimedia & web developers

Jacob (7/27/98 9:05 AM): Hey Rob, guess who is *this* close to getting the investments I need for my brainchild?

techteam (7/27/98 9:05 AM): sorry, Indianapolis

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:05 AM): I would never butcher a name on purpose. I'm just a horrible typist. Don't worry, it all gets cleaned up in the transcripts.

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:06 AM): Jacob, you got money? Tell the folks about it.

jojo (7/27/98 9:06 AM): ha ha I get it

Jacob (7/27/98 9:06 AM): Not completely yet, but I am definitely very close. many people with money interested.

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:07 AM): I believe our newest chatters are jojo, techteam and Carole...any of you want to start off with questions/comments?

Jacob (7/27/98 9:07 AM): And the main lesson is that contacts and friends are the most important thing you can have in the world.

jojo (7/27/98 9:07 AM): jojo = joanna of vermillion human resources consulting

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:07 AM): Well, Jacob, it ain't over 'til the check clears. So keep at it.

jojo (7/27/98 9:07 AM): (RF-remember me?)

techteam (7/27/98 9:08 AM): thought I'd stop by and see what's going on

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:08 AM): Absolutely. That's why we have to keep FrankelBiz as high quality as it is.

techteam (7/27/98 9:08 AM): received on e-business lead thru this area recently

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:08 AM): jojo, refresh my memory.....

jojo (7/27/98 9:08 AM): I'm from L.A. CA and I'm a "new" entrepreneur of 2 yea

jojo (7/27/98 9:08 AM): years

Carole (7/27/98 9:08 AM): We're supposed to ask RF questions: how do you get new customers?

jojo (7/27/98 9:08 AM): we spoke on the phone several months ago

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:09 AM): Oh yeah! Joanna! I do remember you!

Tina Thomas (7/27/98 9:09 AM): Carole, What's your market?

Laurie (7/27/98 9:09 AM): Entered the room.

jojo (7/27/98 9:09 AM): I am having no luck at getting new clients...

Ira Pasternack (7/27/98 9:09 AM): Hi jojo... is vermillion your own company? How much are you using the net to deliver services?

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:10 AM): What biz are you in Carole?

jojo (7/27/98 9:10 AM): but everyone who likes me HIRES me for a couple of weeks/months

Carole Guevin (7/27/98 9:10 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:11 AM): Well, let's just start at a point where everyone here can benefit: first, you're all entrepreneurs....

Carole Guevin (7/27/98 9:11 AM): Outstanding creative ideas, concept, marketing strategies for digital business, intelligence information research, virtual communities building... I know it sounds a lot but it has to do with building "digital business".

jojo (7/27/98 9:11 AM): "V" is my own company; I'm using the net as a billboard, right now.

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:11 AM): taking jojo's comments about being hired for a few weeks should be the big clue: in a service business, you are always in a "project mode". That's a business model you MUST adapt to.

Tina Thomas (7/27/98 9:12 AM): aka Netpreneur

jojo (7/27/98 9:12 AM): when I network with people, I use my website as a billboard

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:12 AM): Let's begin with the worst, most awful, frightening realization that you can make when you decide to go into the service business:

Tina Thomas (7/27/98 9:13 AM): aka Netpreneur

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:13 AM): Frankel's Law of Business Mortality: The minute you sign a client is the minute you begin to lose them.

jojo (7/27/98 9:13 AM): YEEHAA - taking rejection personally is my big problem

Carole Guevin (7/27/98 9:14 AM): The amount of work and networking you have to do in order to get business

jojo (7/27/98 9:14 AM): yes carol, I am right there with you

techteam (7/27/98 9:14 AM): the secret is to position yourself so that the client sees you as an integral part of their business

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:14 AM): This isn't a problem, though, if you use that data to adjust your frame of mind, where you see that servicing clients is NOT how you grow your business; searching for new business is how you grow. That's not to say you slack off, but it does mean that a

Ira Pasternack (7/27/98 9:15 AM): Jojo, one thing I've learned is that at this stage of the game, people who will use the net to find a vendor, especially a consultant that essentially sells info, expects a significant part of the work to be delivered online. At the same time, even someone who finds you online often requires offline contact before they buy (at least telephone, ideally in-person meeting)

Tina Thomas (7/27/98 9:15 AM): Some prospects get it and become clients, some don't... it is not always a reflection on you. Just keep doing what you do best and you will be recognized by those who are ready to hear what you have to say and they will hire you.

Carole Guevin (7/27/98 9:15 AM): Rejection is hard because there is no enough "positive" confirmation or recognition from either peers or our ourselves!

jojo (7/27/98 9:15 AM): Ira, what I do is, when I meet someone, that's where I sell

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:16 AM): Techteam, you're HLAF right. In my speaking gigs (and article "Branding in the Fourth Dimension" <-- PLUG) you'll find the important point is for clients to see you as the ONLY solution to their problems, not just a better one.

jojo (7/27/98 9:16 AM): I see the website as a commercial that plays when they're ready to see it,

Carole Guevin (7/27/98 9:16 AM): To win the trust that will lead to a contract without having to justify all the way!

jojo (7/27/98 9:16 AM): human resources doesn't lend itself to online delivery of "product"

Ira Pasternack (7/27/98 9:17 AM): jojo, what do you mean by "when I meet someone, that's where I sell"?

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:17 AM): Tina is right on about clients. Some are a good fit, some don't get it. And when you realize that the ones who "reject" you usually fail, it starts feeling better.

jojo (7/27/98 9:17 AM): you have to see their papers and mark them up and clean that up

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:18 AM): Jojo, human resources can be very profitable from a just have to structure your business to work that way...

jojo (7/27/98 9:18 AM): Ira-when I meet them I tell them about myself and my company - the sales pitch that doesn't really feel like one

Laurie (7/27/98 9:18 AM): I look at rejection as a challenge - those are the ones I work hardest on. I may ultimately get them as a customer, or I may refer them to someone who "fits" their needs better (for a referral fee:). I use the rejections to hone my sales pitch - if I can even get a conversation going I look at it as a victory. That way it's always a growth thing and I get something out of every interaction.

Jacob (7/27/98 9:18 AM): (sorry for not participating too much, we're having a hammock installed inside the office)

jojo (7/27/98 9:18 AM): I try to find people who can use what I'm offering

Tina Thomas (7/27/98 9:18 AM): Laurie has a good perspective on it.

jojo (7/27/98 9:18 AM): and then I develop a relationship with them

Tina Thomas (7/27/98 9:19 AM): Jacob, is palm tree included?

Jacob (7/27/98 9:19 AM): nope, that costs extra. But the coconuts are great!

jojo (7/27/98 9:20 AM): and then I develop a relationship with them

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:20 AM): I disagree with Laurie on this one. Most of us are one-person shops. You don't have time to beat your head against the wall. You gotta pay the rent. Get the easy stuff first. Make case histories out of them. Sooner than you think, the hard cases cal

Carole Guevin (7/27/98 9:20 AM): So RF how do you get your clients? What is your best sales pitch?

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:21 AM): ...the hard cases call you up to work for them. You double your rates and go!

Ira Pasternack (7/27/98 9:21 AM): Jojo, what type of HR do you do? Sounds like you have a narrower niche than just HR. Or, you just have to change your perspective a bit to see how you can deliver online... for example, training and performance improvement can definitely be delivered over the net.

Carole Guevin (7/27/98 9:21 AM): Laurie - you have a good perspective on working on rejection - but as netpreneurs we do need a group of peers that will support also the angst of starting out here... (aka cyberspace)

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:21 AM): Well, Carole, the secret is found in being a woman.

jojo (7/27/98 9:21 AM): I do compliance, audits, personnel files, the paper stuff of hr.

jojo (7/27/98 9:21 AM): some people say that I do the work that they don't like to do

Tina Thomas (7/27/98 9:22 AM): The thing about trying to land clients when you provide internet services is you must realize that half of all CEO's don't even use the internet and so we must also be talking to anyone in a particular company who understand the need to be online and can educate (or invite you to educate) the decision makers.

jojo (7/27/98 9:22 AM): RF - what on earth do you mean

Carole Guevin (7/27/98 9:22 AM): You mean - to use "femininity" as a persuasion tool???

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:22 AM): Okay, ready? This is really weird, but it works...

jojo (7/27/98 9:22 AM): I have set up potential clients on the net to get them wired.

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:23 AM): After beating my head senseless trying to go after business, I finally realized (through a very good friend of mine) that I was letting testosterone get in the way of my new biz pitch. (This is SO weird)

Tina Thomas (7/27/98 9:24 AM): Go to it, Rob.

Carole Guevin (7/27/98 9:24 AM): Education: primal directive here! We cast to 55K companies in Montreal to "educate" potential customers - you're so right Tina. We find there is an immense lost in wanting a customer that doesn't know zip about internet.

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:25 AM): What I found was that, you should pardon the expression, attracting new biz is like attracting a mate: Men say, "Me want you. Me get you. UG."

Carole Guevin (7/27/98 9:25 AM): OK Rob: being so direct! What level of tests are we talking here? Too aggressive? Too direct? Too hungry for money? What? Explain to your fans...

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:26 AM): Women, on the other hand, are much smarter: "you want me? Well, you're smart to want me. But you can't have me." Which drives the men nuts and makes them want the women even more...

jojo (7/27/98 9:26 AM): so, flirting?

Ira Pasternack (7/27/98 9:26 AM): Tina, remember though that the other half (of CEOs and other execs) do use the net (seeing the glass as half full ;-)... for example, a client of mine has been emailing fortune 500s as part of the marketing process I've help him set up, and he has been contacted by some very senior executives (I must admit I've been very pleasantly surprised by this)

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:27 AM): Now, even I thought that was sexist until I tried it. I stopped "pursuing clients for their business and took more of the "if you want me, you're smart. But you can't have me because I'm too busy"

Tina Thomas (7/27/98 9:27 AM): Rob, I hate to say it but I think you're right... I actually landed a few clients because I think they liked the way my blue dress brings out my blue eyes... they stare me right in the eye... then know I'm only available to work with so they want to work with me. Unbelievable.

Carole Guevin (7/27/98 9:28 AM): Nope to "flirting" - more on the subtle "persuasion" side - play the tactic of knowing the weakness of target client?

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:28 AM): Well, I don't bat my big brown eyes at them, but by not giving them the power position, they realize that they need me more than I need them. And that's why they call.

Carole Guevin (7/27/98 9:28 AM): Nope to "flirting" - more on the subtle "persuasion" side - play the tactic of knowing the weakness of target client?

Tina Thomas (7/27/98 9:28 AM): Ira, you are right, and that market of corps with CEO's who know how to steer their company ship toward the 21st century are a joy to work with.

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:29 AM): If you try role switching, you'll see that the traditional method of gaining business is very male. "Grabbing market share", etc. But that doesn't work for most service businesses. Here, relationships and reputation count.

Ira Pasternack (7/27/98 9:30 AM): Rob, I've learned that lesson myself, as I have gotten busier, I've found I can make the ones I don't really want come to me... problem with that is I still pursue the ones I do really want to hard, and end up having an easier time getting the clients that don't interest me as much. Sort of a catch-22 :)

Carole Guevin (7/27/98 9:30 AM): We are gathered 3 target markets where we think the "money" is and will be into the next era: by experience we have to talk to the highest ranking officer (decision is very important) but true knowledge of the opportunities is still on the rare side of it.

Louise Storkey (7/27/98 9:30 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:31 AM): Second issue: start publishing. If you position yourself as an expert -- and pass the test when people test you on it -- you indeed become the expert.

Louise Storkey (7/27/98 9:32 AM): sounds like some good advice :)

Tina Thomas (7/27/98 9:32 AM): You're right Rob... and that is where I fumbled... soon to be corrected.

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:32 AM): Third issue: Create the program. As I discussed in the last newsletter. Everyone is suspicious of service people as money-suckers. They totally freak when you show up to MAKE them money...

Tina Thomas (7/27/98 9:33 AM): How many times have you found yourself repeating, "This is an investment. We will set goals for ROI."

Carole Guevin (7/27/98 9:33 AM): Well RF you became famous on that model. Actually that's the way I got to know you: through your insanely funny down-to-earth no nonsense articles

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:34 AM): Fourth issue: Fan the flames. Reputations spread fast, especially on the web. Most online publications are desperate for content. I got a big boost writing every Wednesday for, which got my message to 3000 people every week.

Laurie (7/27/98 9:34 AM): Yes, a very helpful newsletter. Just takes a bit of thinking to get creative with it. A landscape designer who has me building her site was very excited to consider bringing in local heritage seed and edible landscaping companies as advertisers and "partners" on her site. Worked like a charm.

Carole Guevin (7/27/98 9:35 AM): Tina: 2 years ago there was a big time forum on ROI and trying to define it. After a month - nobody could define it. It hardly applies to network economy. The best definition is soft ROI - aka less long distance expenses, paper, time consuming (email is faster), collaborative projects, etc

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:35 AM): Fifth issue: Fish where the fish are. If you like working through the web -- like you, jojo -- then fish on the web for that business, because whoever responds will already have gotten past the issue of working with you that way

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:37 AM): Folks, the fact is that we ALL are pioneers here. We have to create our own models of ROI because the rules are totally different here.

Tina Thomas (7/27/98 9:37 AM): Correct Carole, it can be an intangible with just a few tangibles for measurement, but sometimes that's all you need.

Carole Guevin (7/27/98 9:37 AM): The content crisis is IMMENSE! TV stations are desperate to go "interactive" funding almost any programs that will seem to "give" them the edge! To choose with whom to share content is as important as the content itself.

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:38 AM): You also really, really need to re-examine your own businesses and understand that the web offers more possibilities than your traditional models.

Jorge R (7/27/98 9:38 AM): Entered the room.

Carole Guevin (7/27/98 9:38 AM): What do you do Laurie?

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:39 AM): So don't just port your business to the web; integrate the web into your business and allow it to bring new, more profitability.

Tina Thomas (7/27/98 9:39 AM): Correct Rob... when I speak I always emphasize that new markets may pop up that you never thought to go after before.

Carole Guevin (7/27/98 9:40 AM): Agreed on the possibilities: the economic models online are just emerging and it's with communities of serious endeavors that these "models" can be explored, tested, improvised and discussed

Laurie (7/27/98 9:40 AM): Web design mostly, but not brochureware... more like little mini-communities, that's the kind I like best anyway

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:40 AM): That's my sermon on new business...who else has a specific question?

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:42 AM): In the coming months, all of you will see us take FrankelBiz to the next level. At that point, you'll see more business than you can handle.

techteam (7/27/98 9:42 AM): in the truest sense of networking, Laurie, drop me a note after this session at

Carole Guevin (7/27/98 9:42 AM): Laurie I would like to pursue communication offline after chat -

Jorge (7/27/98 9:43 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:43 AM): Lynn, you still there?

Louise Storkey (7/27/98 9:43 AM): you keep teasing us Rob, can you tell us more specifics?

Tina Thomas (7/27/98 9:43 AM): Carole, jojo... what are your URL's?

Carole Guevin (7/27/98 9:43 AM): I have read a good book where it said that the easiest way to "teach" reticent business about the internet possibilities is to tell them that you want to build "a digital business arm" to their actual business. It seems to be more readily acceptable without having to get involved into re-thinking the traditional business processes.

jojo (7/27/98 9:43 AM): RE: my business of HR consulting - is there a way that I can advertise my business without using "fire & brimstone" as a thread, or would I even want to?

jojo (7/27/98 9:43 AM): RE: my business of HR consulting - is there a way that I can advertise my business without using "fire & brimstone" as a thread, or would I even want to?

jojo (7/27/98 9:44 AM):

Laurie (7/27/98 9:45 AM): Yes, thanks to Carole & techteam... and thanks to Rob, too:)

jojo (7/27/98 9:45 AM): (be kind - I did it myself)

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:46 AM): Well, Soapiest of all Ladies, our little group has caught the attention of three major web powerhouses. I am in discussions with all three to build out FrankelBiz as part of their content. Which means we all get WAY higher visibility. Can't mention names

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:46 AM): Can't mention names yet, but I will as soon as the ink is dry.

Carole Guevin (7/27/98 9:46 AM): My URL is just a splash for the moment - I'm just out of ISP inferno and have to "redo" my virtual home... contact me through email.

Carole Guevin (7/27/98 9:48 AM): What would major web powerhouse have to do with us RF? Please be patient: I don't understand the implications...

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:48 AM): Seriously, Louise, by the end of the year, we will be the proof that small business on the web is where it's at. The best part is that we'll all be making money from it.

Carole Guevin (7/27/98 9:49 AM): Jojo - If you need help with your site - let me know... we're doing some freebies in order to build credibility!

Louise Storkey (7/27/98 9:49 AM): well, I am making money at it ( at last :))

Tina Thomas (7/27/98 9:49 AM): Great conversation as usual... gotta run... until next time... :)

Jorge (7/27/98 9:49 AM): Hello everyone. I'm having a little lag here. Too glad to have more girls than usual here : )

Ira Pasternack (7/27/98 9:50 AM): Jojo, looks like you have a nice start... have you developed an online marketing plan, that addresses both what you want people to do when they find you, and how you will promote it so people do find you.

jojo (7/27/98 9:50 AM): Carole-I'd be thrilled with any assistance anyone would offer -

Laurie (7/27/98 9:50 AM): By the way, before the session is up today, I'd like to thank everyone who helped me research e-commerce... I've got a whack of URLs and experiences, very helpful. Got more accomplished in one week with this list than in eight months put together off it!

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:50 AM): Carole, imagine if Netscape or Microsoft had a small business center that was total FrankelBiz....think of the activity...and the business.

techteam (7/27/98 9:50 AM): multimedia sales and training done in house, web normally farmed out

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:50 AM): Bye Tina.

Ira Pasternack (7/27/98 9:51 AM): My company is about to being offering a free class to help you develop your marketing plan, you can sign up at

jojo (7/27/98 9:51 AM): ooh, thanks Ira, you got all that from looking at my site??? or are you just flattering me??

techteam (7/27/98 9:51 AM): always looking for good developers to talk with

jojo (7/27/98 9:51 AM): (it worked)

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:51 AM): (EIGHT MINUTE WARNING)

Ira Pasternack (7/27/98 9:52 AM): jojo, I just took a few minutes to skim through, and found several things that indicate you are on the right track - didn't tell you it was perfect yet though ;-)

detroitguy (7/27/98 9:52 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:52 AM): (I wonder how Jacob's hammock is coming along....)

detroitguy (7/27/98 9:53 AM): techteam - could you please email me at with more info on developers you're looking for?

jojo (7/27/98 9:53 AM): oh, I know I'm nowhere close to perfection. I'm just happy to be online and getting some hits!!!

techteam (7/27/98 9:53 AM): can do

Louise Storkey (7/27/98 9:54 AM): rob, before you go away..I am going to place the ad on the FrankelBiz list, just nearer Sept, or do you think that is too late? I don't know when corporate start thinking Christmas LOL

jojo (7/27/98 9:54 AM): I do have to focus more on what I want out of the hits that happen

detroitguy (7/27/98 9:54 AM): sorry to just jump in like this! I'm juggling the chat room and work and lunch all at once!

Carole Guevin (7/27/98 9:54 AM): Hello? I'm frozen...

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:54 AM): Larry, don't be shy about posting your search to FrankelBiz, either. WE have a lot of people who might fit your bill.

techteam (7/27/98 9:55 AM): ok, normally try to match up clients and talents so the client gets the best of both worlds

Ira Pasternack (7/27/98 9:55 AM): Jojo, check out the course I mentioned at , it sounds like that will be a perfect next step for you

jojo (7/27/98 9:56 AM): thanks, Ira, I will!

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:56 AM): Louise, a new FrankelBee wrote to me off list. He sells Christmas Trees on line. I told him to start seeking out holiday partners now. maybe this is how you should start, too...

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:57 AM): Other wise, I don't see a problem with posting closest to occasions that coincide with holidays..Secretaries Day, Grandparents Day, etc...

Louise Storkey (7/27/98 9:57 AM): how did you tell him to do that???

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:57 AM): (TWO MINUTES)

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:58 AM): He wrote, I answered.

RobFrankel (7/27/98 9:59 AM): I told him that there were people on the list he could work with. You were in mind, of course.

Louise Storkey (7/27/98 9:59 AM): ha ha, I meant how to search out

jojo (7/27/98 9:59 AM): this was wonderful, everyone. I look forward to next week already!

Louise Storkey (7/27/98 9:59 AM): you mean, like an ad every holiday? I don't think this is what you mean, is it?

Carole Guevin (7/27/98 9:59 AM): I guess one of the post got zapped. Our studio is doing freebies for the next month in order to build our credibility - we've done over 10 sites already - so if anyone interested -

RobFrankel (7/27/98 10:00 AM): Oh, just post to the list about how you want to start a "gift network" among FrankelBees with on-competing stuff.

techteam (7/27/98 10:00 AM): mini sales pitch -- we will partner with any FrankelBees who need multimedia help. Let us know

RobFrankel (7/27/98 10:00 AM): Okay, gang. gotta run now, but PLEASE feel free to hang out and do biz. I'll see you online.

RobFrankel (7/27/98 10:01 AM): BTW that should have read "non-competing"

Louise Storkey (7/27/98 10:01 AM): yep, gotcha ;)

jojo (7/27/98 10:01 AM): ciao, Rob!

Ira Pasternack (7/27/98 10:01 AM): bye all, see ya next week! :)

Carole Guevin (7/27/98 10:01 AM): Bye gentle dictator!

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