Transcript of Frankel's Free Clinic August 3, 1998

Doc Williamson (8/3/98 8:56 AM): Hi, Guy, hello "

Guy R Cook - (8/3/98 8:57 AM): hi, so I am logged in

Guy R Cook - (8/3/98 8:58 AM): You too are on the West Coast is seems

Doc Williamson (8/3/98 8:59 AM): Well, this thing usually starts on time. But we are still 1 minute early by my watch

RobFrankel (8/3/98 8:59 AM): Entered the room.

Doc Williamson (8/3/98 8:59 AM): Arizona actually

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:00 AM): Hey, you guys! Good morning!

Larry (Techteam) (8/3/98 9:00 AM): Entered the room.

Doc Williamson (8/3/98 9:00 AM): Arizona actually

Doc Williamson (8/3/98 9:00 AM): Morning Rob

Larry (Techteam) (8/3/98 9:00 AM): good morning everyone

Guy R Cook - (8/3/98 9:00 AM): Good morning, it's my first time so be gentle Rob.

Jacob (8/3/98 9:00 AM): Entered the room.

Larry (Techteam) (8/3/98 9:00 AM): Rob -Gentle?

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:00 AM): I'M the west coast guy -- and I'm uncharacteristically early today...

Doc Williamson (8/3/98 9:01 AM): What is "dialone"? Guy?

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:01 AM): GARY! YOUR FIRST TIME! AHAH! ATTACK!

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:01 AM): Ah, don't sweat it, Gary....what brings you here today?

Guy R Cook - (8/3/98 9:01 AM): dialone is a "plug" for my first domain...

Doc Williamson (8/3/98 9:01 AM): Hey, it takes Rob half an hour just to warm up his hot pokers and handcuffs

Jacob (8/3/98 9:01 AM): Good morning everyone, ready for some down and dirty networking?

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:02 AM): oops. I mean Guy. (too early, no coffee)

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:02 AM): Guy, I'm assuming you're a telecom guru...yes? No?

Guy R Cook - (8/3/98 9:02 AM): oh, thought so, I am here curious I suppose, I have 3 years of doing "it" but always trying to learn more

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:03 AM): What kind of telecom do you "do"?

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:03 AM): BTW, looks like a stag party this week...last week it was almost all female, save yours truly....

Larry (Techteam) (8/3/98 9:04 AM): and me!!!!

Guy R Cook - (8/3/98 9:04 AM): I just went out on my own as Internet Marketing and Consulting Services after 2 plus years as an ISP marketing director for

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:05 AM): ...and what is dialone doing now?

Guy R Cook - (8/3/98 9:05 AM): I sold my first website in august of 1995, we develop, host and maintain web presence's for small and mid sized businesses

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:06 AM): What services do you offer -- do you handle secure servers and shopping carts?

Ira Pasternack (8/3/98 9:06 AM): Entered the room.

Guy R Cook - (8/3/98 9:06 AM): Both, I have done secure purchasing several times, already, it's in vogue now to have it.

Guy R Cook - (8/3/98 9:07 AM): In 1995 of course that wasn't the case, but now it's a have to do it I think.

Doc Williamson (8/3/98 9:07 AM): Ira, hi. My IQC blew up, what's my number so I can reinstall please?

Guy R Cook - (8/3/98 9:07 AM): Wow! Ira I read your MTOTD everyday keep up the good work.

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:08 AM): The reason I ask is that I'll likely be posting a need for that later today on the list, so do watch your mail. Some nice folks in SC need a commerce site.

Guy R Cook - (8/3/98 9:08 AM): Darn it, I have to take my wife to the dentist in about 5 minutes.

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:08 AM): See Guy? Ira is here...and you thought you were slumming. We're BIG TIME!

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:09 AM): Let her teeth rot! We're doing business!

Guy R Cook - (8/3/98 9:09 AM): I had imagined you would be a great place to network.

Doc Williamson (8/3/98 9:09 AM): Monday morning finger dyslexia, I meant, ICQ, of course Ira. YOU WRITE the MTOTD?

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:09 AM): Just kidding...there's no substitute for good oral hygiene.

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:10 AM): Doc, you think it gets written by elves?

Guy R Cook - (8/3/98 9:10 AM): my wife isn't here reading, thank god, she is part Indian and has a terrific temper. I would hate for you to get her ticked off.

Doc Williamson (8/3/98 9:10 AM): Guy, my company is a service company to ISP/Web masters, specifically doing "video serving" for others, we should talk.

Jorge R (8/3/98 9:10 AM): Entered the room.

Jacob (8/3/98 9:10 AM): Tell me about it, my dentist appointment is 3 hours.

Ira Pasternack (8/3/98 9:10 AM): Hi Doc, yup I write/edit/publish MTOTD... your icq # is 10861868

Doc Williamson (8/3/98 9:11 AM): Ira has his magical and elfin qualities, too. I don't get it regularly, but sometimes see it quoted.

Guy R Cook - (8/3/98 9:11 AM): Doc and others too, my ICQ is #500136 and no I don't have the request permission to add me turned on.

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:11 AM): Guy, we'll talk about marriage OFF LINE...this chat transcript gets posted....

Jacob (8/3/98 9:11 AM): Rob, you think I can broach to the group my little/latest idea?

Doc Williamson (8/3/98 9:11 AM): Thanks Ira

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:12 AM): Absolutely Jacob. Go.

Guy R Cook - (8/3/98 9:12 AM): Oh, do email me the URL please, the intercom just buzzed and the lady in my life said "it's time to go"

Jacob (8/3/98 9:13 AM): Ok, well, this weekend I was getting pretty peeved since I couldn't afford to pay $17,000 for a full page ad in Wired magazine...

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:13 AM): Bye Guy...see you on line.

Guy R Cook - (8/3/98 9:13 AM): I will be back soon. I will leave my name online so I can copy this but won't be chatting ok?

Arnold Brod (8/3/98 9:13 AM): Entered the room.

Jacob (8/3/98 9:13 AM): And then I figured, what if I got 16 other people to each give 1,000 and we could all split an full page ad.

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:13 AM): Guy, you can always download a transcript of this chat at my site.

Arnold Brod (8/3/98 9:13 AM): Good morning everybody

Jacob (8/3/98 9:14 AM): The ad would have a short introduction to what we are doing and then one URL. On that site we would put a URL/description for everyone who chipped in. That's it.

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:14 AM): Hi Arnold. Jacob was just explaining about chipping in for an ad in WIRED magazine...

Jacob (8/3/98 9:15 AM): So what do you think?

Jacob (8/3/98 9:15 AM): Wouldn't it be nice seeing your ad in Wired, instead of just another Dell or HP ad?

Arnold Brod (8/3/98 9:16 AM): Yeah, I read that. Interesting.

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:16 AM): Opinions? Comments? Praise? Castigation?

Jacob (8/3/98 9:17 AM): (My idea seems to have a silencing effect on people)

Ira Pasternack (8/3/98 9:17 AM): Who would you see chipping in Jacob? Why not get a single smaller ad instead of a full page ad?


Larry (Techteam) (8/3/98 9:18 AM): 1 $4000 ad in 4 different mags might make more sense

Jacob (8/3/98 9:18 AM): A- anybody ho wanted, doesn't matter. B-because it's cool

Doc Williamson (8/3/98 9:18 AM): IMHO, one time $17,000 ads are still a "shot in the dark". Maybe you hit something, maybe you don't you have to have a "campaign" to build awareness to be effective in the long run, and be around next year.

Ira Pasternack (8/3/98 9:20 AM): Why advertise cuz it "is cool"??? How about having an objective to accomplish? Why would 1/17 of an ad in Wired help your business? And who is going to read an ad for 17 random companies? Am I missing something?

Larry (Techteam) (8/3/98 9:20 AM): A publisher friend of mine said one timers are ineffective, you need to have the repetition

Jacob (8/3/98 9:22 AM): The ad itself wouldn't list 17 URLs. I was kidding about the "cool" reason. Everyone would advertise for their own reasons/objective. The ad would introduce the idea of a handful of companies buying an ad, getting people's attention to the site that would list the companies that chipped in.

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:22 AM): Jacob, the floor is yours...

Jacob (8/3/98 9:22 AM): It would be meant for people who could benefit from participating.

Larry (Techteam) (8/3/98 9:23 AM): report from Indy - last week's chat produced 4 leads and 3 offers of sub contract work

Jacob (8/3/98 9:23 AM): If you think having your company advertised in Wired would be good for business, then participate. It's not for somebody to just pay $1,000 so he can say "Hi mommy" on a full page ad in Wired.

Doc Williamson (8/3/98 9:23 AM): You would still be far better to include 75 firms/people, and plan on 4 ads at least.

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:24 AM): A page in WIRED is roughly 9 x 12 (to make the math easy. how would the page be divided per URL?

Jorge R (8/3/98 9:24 AM): what do you offer Larry?

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:24 AM): NICE SHOOTIN' Larry!

Larry (Techteam) (8/3/98 9:24 AM): multimedia development and "high" end web sites

Ira Pasternack (8/3/98 9:25 AM): Jacob, I think you may be going about this backwards... start by finding companies that could benefit by promoting themselves together, then as a group you can decide where to spend your money.

Jacob (8/3/98 9:25 AM): There would be ONE URL on the ad itself. That site would then include a description of the concept and the participators, with URL's to each individual page.

Larry (Techteam) (8/3/98 9:25 AM): mostly DB related web stuff

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:26 AM): Jacob: What would the URL be?

Jorge R (8/3/98 9:26 AM): Software or hosting , Larry?

Jacob (8/3/98 9:26 AM): And the ad itself could even allude to the idea, and say something to the effect of- we aren't huge companies like the rest of the advertisers here. But we do have a great service/product.....

Larry (Techteam) (8/3/98 9:26 AM): custom creation on the software end, no hosting

Jacob (8/3/98 9:27 AM): Well, if the idea goes forward, I would get a domain name Rob.

Doc Williamson (8/3/98 9:27 AM): Ira is right. Wired has a viewership, but not necessarily better targeted than say (just for example) Yahoo.

Doc Williamson (8/3/98 9:27 AM): Larry, you mean like making up "video" clips for web sites?

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:28 AM): Jacob, I have

Larry (Techteam) (8/3/98 9:28 AM): total packages, video, audio, 3-D animations, etc

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:28 AM): Doc is circling an unsuspecting Larry...

Jacob (8/3/98 9:28 AM): What are you saying Rob?

Larry (Techteam) (8/3/98 9:29 AM): guns are now loaded

Doc Williamson (8/3/98 9:29 AM): Larry, hold your fire. I am making a friendly approach (and besides, I've already got you surrounded).

Larry (Techteam) (8/3/98 9:30 AM): but the wagons are in a circle

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:30 AM): Well, Jacob, it sounds as if you're unifying a group of URL's under one aegis with no other support.

Larry (Techteam) (8/3/98 9:30 AM): oops circle

Larry (Techteam) (8/3/98 9:31 AM): It's Monday they may be in a circus, who knows

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:31 AM): It might help if the URL had some brand identity. Like it needs something to hold it together, no?

Jorge R (8/3/98 9:31 AM): Entered the room.

Doc Williamson (8/3/98 9:31 AM): Haven't you seen the cowboy movies, the "settlers" in the wagon don't have a chance. :o)

Doc Williamson (8/3/98 9:32 AM): Seriously, Larry, as you may have already seen in earlier discussion this morning, My company does "

Jacob (8/3/98 9:32 AM): Well, obviously the domain name would be related to the concept.

Larry (Techteam) (8/3/98 9:32 AM): story of my life

Jorge R (8/3/98 9:33 AM): Entered the room.

Jacob (8/3/98 9:33 AM): A high percentage of subscribers to FrankelBiz offer some kind of discount to the members. You don't think their business would benefit my the entire readership of Wired seeing their special offers?

Doc Williamson (8/3/98 9:34 AM): (fumbling fingers on the "return" key, too) VIDEO, especially video hosting for 3rd parties, but we also do video production (with partners/sub-contractors) and audio, including voice over work. Can we help?

Jorge R (8/3/98 9:34 AM): Hey does anyone here offer web hosting?

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:34 AM): If FrankelBiz were a part of it, list members wouldn't need to offer discounts: the ad is positioned to NON-listmembers.

Larry (Techteam) (8/3/98 9:35 AM): very possibly Doc - send me an e-mail w/info

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:35 AM): And, sure, they could. But I'll tell you what would be a smarter way to do it, if you really want to.

Jacob (8/3/98 9:35 AM): But you can't say that people wouldn't be more attracted to an ad offering X number of vendors each offering discounts.

Doc Williamson (8/3/98 9:36 AM): Larry, and you email address is ....???

Larry (Techteam) (8/3/98 9:36 AM):

Jacob (8/3/98 9:36 AM): Tell me what you're thinking Rob.

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:37 AM): Maybe, Jacob. But the first thing I would do is check into WIRED's (assuming that's the rag you really want) "remnant" inventory.

Jacob (8/3/98 9:37 AM): What about a FrankelBiz PLUS program, where you pay $X and you are part of the program?

Jacob (8/3/98 9:38 AM): Well I'm just using Wired as an example. It could be any magazine.

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:38 AM): Then I'd create the ad and the website for it. And when the mag has remnant inventory available, they run it for cheaps.

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:39 AM): Personally, I don't believe in WIRED as a business vehicle. U.S. News or TIME, now you're talking...

Doc Williamson (8/3/98 9:39 AM): Larry, I will drop you a note (about 20 minutes from now when this forum is over) (do you have ICQ?)

Larry (Techteam) (8/3/98 9:40 AM): no we don't Doc

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:40 AM): But I'll bet dollars to digits that nobody would cough up a cool thousand for a one-time mention. For a hundred or two, maybe. And for that, I might be interested.

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:42 AM): What you want to build, Jacob, is an ongoing program. Most of our list are sole proprietors. They've gotta watch the nickels and dimes and make they get ROI. Fast.

Jacob (8/3/98 9:42 AM): I think this would be a case of "the more the merrier," from our perspective it would mean your share is less, and from the reader's perspective, they get discounts/interesting content from a wider array of companies/people.

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:42 AM): So you gotta make it cheap and effective. That's why the FrankelBiz thing works so well for us.

Jacob (8/3/98 9:43 AM): So you think it merits a one-time experiment to see how it goes and then decide whether to do it again or not?

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:44 AM): But then, aren't you really just publicizing a site for reliable, great online business people?

Ira Pasternack (8/3/98 9:44 AM): Jacob, here are some issues you'll need to think about... will you allow competitive sites to go in on the deal? will you get anything extra in exchange for maintaining the Web site?

Jacob (8/3/98 9:45 AM): YES, exactly. But the difference is that all the great online business people on FrankelBiz can't afford an ad in a magazine.

Doc Williamson (8/3/98 9:45 AM): Everyone, a "free tip" that some of you already know about. The ICQ (pronounced "I seek you") is a really handy and convenient way to send brief messages and hold chat sessions. It is not 100% "bullet proof" technically. I crashes occasionally, but is easy to reinstall, I did it while online in this forum this morning. Check it out. It is FREE, and available at

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:45 AM): Well, I think you have to hit a critical mass: The cost has to be below $100 per member

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:46 AM): ...and then you have to hit the right magazines and press.

Larry (Techteam) (8/3/98 9:46 AM): we'll check ICQ after the forum Doc (and lunch)

Jacob (8/3/98 9:47 AM): At around 100 dollars, we would need about 200 people.

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:47 AM): If you go the remnant route, you have to inform people that the ad runs whenever possible, not regularly.

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:47 AM): You need 200 people if the ad costs $20,000. If it costs $7,500, you need 75...

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:48 AM): Incidentally, Ira, I have no problem with competitive listings...

Larry (Techteam) (8/3/98 9:49 AM): and 75 people all in 1 print ad could get very confusing for the reader

Jacob (8/3/98 9:49 AM): true. But with only 8 people, each person gets much higher visibility. I can list 10 companies on the homepage. 200 companies would have to be organized into "listings" and a search engine.

Jacob (8/3/98 9:49 AM): the ad would only describe the concept and have the URL of the homepage, Larry.

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:49 AM): Well, not if they're listed as "sponsors", and then listed again at the site.

Larry (Techteam) (8/3/98 9:50 AM): ok

Ira Pasternack (8/3/98 9:50 AM): You might not, and I might not have a problem with that Rob, but Jacob's prospects might. Just mentioning that this is an issue that people will ask about in any collective venture like this.

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:50 AM): Jacob, that's too difficult. You gotta make this easy and affordable

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:51 AM): Yes and no, Ira. I mean, we have tons of competitors on FrankelBiz -- it actually helps business.

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:52 AM): (EIGHT MINUTE WARNING)

Jorge R (8/3/98 9:52 AM): Entered the room.

Jacob (8/3/98 9:52 AM): There is a break point between affordable and a mass of companies that will be getting very little publicity since they are only one in a hundred.

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:52 AM): Looks like Jorge is having connectivity problems...

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:53 AM): Depends how you develop the ad, Jacob. If it's a "check these out for great vendors" strategy, you force the reader to read through it.

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:54 AM): Besides, they might be one in a hundred in the ad, but they're in front of how many thousands? The numbers do a certain amount of work here.

Jorge R (8/3/98 9:54 AM): yep rob. : )

Ira Pasternack (8/3/98 9:55 AM): Rob, my point is if I'm paying to go in on an ad, I might pay $x if I am the exclusive for my industry... but if my competition is also buying in, I might only be willing to pay 1/10 of $x (for example)

Jorge R (8/3/98 9:56 AM): I agree Ira. There must be a differentiation in prices.

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:56 AM): I hear you Ira. But if I were doing this, I wouldn't want to limit my sales potential by limiting one category to one buyer. Especially for a one time hit.

Doc Williamson (8/3/98 9:57 AM): The "IGA" grocery chain is not a traditional chain at all (or at least not originally), It was the "Independent Grocers' Alliance" buyer cooperative. If you can get some "brand recognition" out of the association, Jacob, that is a valid reason to join in on this kind of group ad. Group ad buying, plus brand recognition.

Jacob (8/3/98 9:57 AM): Well, if you are one in a hundred, for the readers to get to your site they have to do a search through the main site (like a search engine). But if you're one out of 20, I could list them all on the homepage=much better chances of getting seen.

Jorge R (8/3/98 9:57 AM): On the other hand, you're specially right Rob. : )

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:57 AM): Good analogy, Doc. But they have a whole due-paying organization.

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:58 AM): How many categories can you segment before you run out?

RobFrankel (8/3/98 9:59 AM): (TWO MINUTES)

Ira Pasternack (8/3/98 10:00 AM): Great chat as always, thanks all. Gotta run now. See ya all in 2 weeks, I'll be out of town next Monday. Mostly a long weekend off, but will be meeting with another FrankelBee while I'm away, someone I'm working on a big joint venture with that all started at one of these chats. :) Should have details for ya in 2 weeks.

Jacob (8/3/98 10:00 AM): You can segment a lot. But would you pay Yahoo to advertise their listing because you're in the directory? No. But you might pay a site that only had 19 other people and you were right there on their homepage.

RobFrankel (8/3/98 10:00 AM): Okay, Jacob, so where are you on this?

Larry (Techteam) (8/3/98 10:00 AM): wouldn't it be easier and cheaper for one of the group to add a "preferred vendors" links page to one of our sites?

Doc Williamson (8/3/98 10:00 AM): Rob, IGA is more like a "franchise" now, I believe. Jacob, you can list 20 or even 30 categories on a single homepage, and group your participants under them without any "search engine" complexity.

Jacob (8/3/98 10:01 AM): The bottom line is, you can pay a little and be on in a lot, OR pay more and be one in a little.

RobFrankel (8/3/98 10:01 AM): Well, I gotta split. But Jacob, as always, you are an idea man. Let's give this some more thought. This has been a GREAT discussion...maybe even a plan.

Jorge R (8/3/98 10:02 AM): Have a great week FrankelBees!!

RobFrankel (8/3/98 10:02 AM): Why not take the next step and really look at the media you'd use?

Jacob (8/3/98 10:02 AM): Thanks, see ya all next week!

Larry (Techteam) (8/3/98 10:02 AM): see y'all next week

Doc Williamson (8/3/98 10:03 AM): Jacob, but remember, "once is not enough" and folks who can afford to cough up $1000 a month for several months, probably don't need this kind of aggregating to get their ads into a national publication/website.

RobFrankel (8/3/98 10:03 AM): Feel free to hang out, but I gotta radio interview thing and I'm still in my Bermuda shorts...

Jacob (8/3/98 10:03 AM): lots of stuff for me to think about, thanks everyone!

©1998, RobFrankel, Contact Us