Transcript of Frankel's Free Clinic August 5, 2002

Terri Robinson (recruit2hire.com) (8/5/2002 9:00 AM): Hi everyone! long time no see! :)

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:00 AM): Good morning everyone! How's things going?

Terri Robinson (recruit2hire.com) (8/5/2002 9:01 AM): Hey Rob, I loved your "branding ninja" story!

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:01 AM): Lorilyn, this IS a chat for Easterners! Think about the guys in Hawaii and the UK! They have it really tough

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:01 AM): Thanks, Terri. It's a real life experience.

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (8/5/2002 9:01 AM): Sorry i missed the last two, was at a funeral and then a party

stephen@spectrumedia.com (8/5/2002 9:01 AM): Entered the room.

Pat Hardy (phardy.com) (8/5/2002 9:02 AM): Entered the room.

Terri Robinson (recruit2hire.com) (8/5/2002 9:02 AM): yeah, I could definitely relate to it, Rob!

stephen@spectrumedia.com (8/5/2002 9:02 AM): Good Morning every one!

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:02 AM): Sorry about that John. It looks like I'm headed for a funeral myself this week....

stephen@spectrumedia.com (8/5/2002 9:02 AM): Good Morning everyone!

Ben Woodward (perpetuainteractive.com) (8/5/2002 9:03 AM): Lorilyn... are you in Raleigh?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:03 AM): So who's up first today?

Pat Hardy (phardy.com) (8/5/2002 9:03 AM): Hey Rob, I have a question related to your response on testing taglines.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:03 AM): Go Pat:

Pat Hardy (phardy.com) (8/5/2002 9:04 AM): Do you suggest that one should come up with a tag line, go along with it, and see what happens as opposed to asking people their opinion?

Pat Hardy (phardy.com) (8/5/2002 9:04 AM): I would think that's like taking a shot in the dark.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (8/5/2002 9:04 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:05 AM): You bet, Pat. As I wrote in today's FrankelTips, taglines are leadership statements. If you "test" them, you're going to get a lot of false results. Don't forget that most people have no idea how to react to "new and different" ideas. They recoil from them -- until they see everyone else latching on to them

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:05 AM): pat, it's not taking a shot in the dark IF your tag is developed from good branding rationale. The trouble is that most people try to get clever with the tag before thinking through its real message

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (8/5/2002 9:06 AM): Whom would you ask, your clients?

Pat Hardy (phardy.com) (8/5/2002 9:06 AM): Hmm.. I see. Ok.

Frederick (bspage.com) (8/5/2002 9:06 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:06 AM): Good point, Anita: There are very few people you can ask who are qualified to answer.

Brett Stuckel (bstuckel@mail.colgate.edu) (8/5/2002 9:06 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:06 AM): For example, if you ask anyone "What do you think of this line?" 100% of the time, you'll a response like, "Ummm, I like that one."

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:07 AM): But the point is NOT about what they LIKE, it's about what works to communicate the brand accurately and compellingly

Ben Woodward (perpetuainteractive.com) (8/5/2002 9:07 AM): FYI, same goes for almost any creative idea presented to "regular" people...

Terri Robinson (recruit2hire.com) (8/5/2002 9:07 AM): I used several different taglines when I was starting out, Rob - and you're right - asking friends and associates to "test" them out on didn't do a thing - the ones they didn't think much of were the ones that got prospective clients to notice me!

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (8/5/2002 9:08 AM): Rob would you say a tagline has to link directly to the brand then?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:08 AM): I just had a War Room Session like that recently. A perfectly good tag got killed because one member of the team showed the tag line to "a few of her friends and they didn't like it."

Pat Hardy (phardy.com) (8/5/2002 9:08 AM): But the only way to find out what works is by coming up with a tagline you *think* works, and then just go for it.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:08 AM): Want to hear something really weird?

Pat Hardy (phardy.com) (8/5/2002 9:09 AM): Sure.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:09 AM): I always know when a client has gotten a really good tag line or name when their first reaction is complete silence.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:09 AM): In fact, the less they rave, the better the line. Because it forces them to think about it in a new way. that's how I know that the line is going to be great.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:10 AM): On the other hand, when they jump up and down about it, I can bet good money that it won't survive the "morning after" test.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (8/5/2002 9:10 AM): My tagline is working quite well, even though no one here liked it.

Pat Hardy (phardy.com) (8/5/2002 9:10 AM): Ok. That leads me to this question. If you're advertising online, how would you know what a potential customer's reaction would be unless you heard from them?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:10 AM): So the whole point is summed up in Frankel's Sixth: it's a leadership thing. They don't have to like it immediately. They'll learn to love it.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:11 AM): The question, Pat, is why would you care? Nobody is going to do business with you just for the tag line you run.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (8/5/2002 9:12 AM): So, what is the point of a tagline?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:12 AM): You can tell if the tag is working by the referrals you get. I can't tell you how many people write to me asking me how they can "turn their users into evangelists." That works.

Terri Robinson (recruit2hire.com) (8/5/2002 9:12 AM): Isn't a tagline about getting them to remember you, Rob?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:12 AM): Anita, the point of the tag is to consistently provide a platform on which your messaging is based.

Frederick (bspage.com) (8/5/2002 9:12 AM): What's the point of a tagline, anyway?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:13 AM): No, Terri, the name of your business is what they remember. The tag is WHY they should remember it.

Terri Robinson (recruit2hire.com) (8/5/2002 9:13 AM): ahhh, okay - that does make sense!

stephen@spectrumedia.com (8/5/2002 9:14 AM): I'm a new bee could i ask a question?

stephen@spectrumedia.com (8/5/2002 9:14 AM): I'm a new bee could i ask a question?

Rick (Kitty5 NewMedia) (8/5/2002 9:14 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:15 AM): Too many people expect the tag line to be their whole world. It's only a supporting device. Don't expect it to do any more than 60% of the heavy lifting

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:15 AM): Sure, Stephen.

stephen@spectrumedia.com (8/5/2002 9:15 AM): For optimizing myself for the web what should be my focus? My focus in general is marketing and design for smaller companies. But to optimize myself under marketing seems impossible due to the large amount of companies that all ready exist.

Weber jajagroup.com (8/5/2002 9:16 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:16 AM): I believe you, Stephen. That's why your brand is so important. You have to niche more narrowly first and then own that category. that makes it much easier to optimize.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:16 AM): You don't have to drop your other disciplines, but lead with one thing and optimize for that

Weber jajagroup.com (8/5/2002 9:17 AM): Good morning/afternoon/evening

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:17 AM): By simply doing that, I manage to stay in Google's top 10.

stephen@spectrumedia.com (8/5/2002 9:18 AM): Well i feel my design is what Makes me shine!

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:18 AM): Stephen, your URL says media, but you say you're in marketing and design. So there's a question of where you should even be,

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:18 AM): Once people find you based on what they need, you can always upsell them to other services.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:19 AM): Okay, then lead with design, but as you know, you're going to have to say something special about your design or you'll be just as lost in the masses of designers. Again, it's a branding thing.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:19 AM): By the way, I don't spend a dime on listing fees.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (8/5/2002 9:20 AM): Most designers do not do marketing.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:20 AM): I gotta tell you, from your URL I would never have expected you to be "no-nonsense marketing experts"

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (8/5/2002 9:21 AM): So that would be a good place to start.

Rick (Kitty5 NewMedia) (8/5/2002 9:21 AM): Hey Rob, your website is stacked with *serious* html errors and is not accessible by any standards.

Ben Woodward (perpetuainteractive.com) (8/5/2002 9:21 AM): You may want to watch hoe thinly you spread your service list... design & marketing are two pretty different things...

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:21 AM): If you developed a brand and worked outward from there, you'd also be less at the mercy of search engines and leveraging your client base for more referrals.

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (8/5/2002 9:21 AM): I have a question when you're ready Rob

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:22 AM): Anita, in most environments, designers who are marketers are oxymorons

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:22 AM): Go ahead, john.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:22 AM): Rick, really? Where?

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (8/5/2002 9:22 AM): Rob a number of companies offer to produce and distribute Press releases, are these a good way of getting your brand known?

Pat Hardy (phardy.com) (8/5/2002 9:23 AM): Rob - designers & marketers = oxymorons? Why?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:23 AM): John, it depends on the company. You have to check each one and look at to whom they distribute. I have had some stories picked up through some of these services, but I couldn't tell you how effective they've been.

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (8/5/2002 9:24 AM): Entered the room.

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (8/5/2002 9:24 AM): I've been lurking secretly. ;-) How's it going, Mr. Friar?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:24 AM): Pat, the common wisdom (not that I believe it) is that designers only care about making it look pretty.

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (8/5/2002 9:25 AM): Short one this time, thanks

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:25 AM): Marketers' discipline are strategic and implementation. The two fields are worlds apart.

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (8/5/2002 9:25 AM): Poor response so far Peter, but I'll get there

Pat Hardy (phardy.com) (8/5/2002 9:25 AM): Rob - I see. I've witnessed this many times in the past. Thanks for the clarification.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:26 AM): Rick Kitty5 NewMedia the site seems to be fine for me.....

Rick (Kitty5 NewMedia) (8/5/2002 9:26 AM): main page alone has over 100 html errors - these prevent your site working as expected on non standard user agents (which mostly ignore them)

Fred (8/5/2002 9:26 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:26 AM): The important part of that last comment is "common wisdom". It's SO important to realize that you are NOT broadcasting your brand into a vacuum. These people al have pre-conceived notions that you have to fight.

Ben Woodward (perpetuainteractive.com) (8/5/2002 9:27 AM): So rob (when you get the chance for a new question) -- how would a successful, strategy-based designer plow past that stigma?

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (8/5/2002 9:27 AM): Much happier with my site design now, just got to get the branding right now

Rick (Kitty5 NewMedia) (8/5/2002 9:27 AM): seems fine to you as your not using a screen reader or any other non standard browser (such as msie or Netscape)

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (8/5/2002 9:27 AM): John, go over to IdeaCafe.com and add your profile.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:27 AM): Rick, what browser are you using? you're the first person that's has any issues with it. It's all basic HTML. No frames even

stephen@spectrumedia.com (8/5/2002 9:27 AM): I also believe that majority of designers spend absolutely no time marketing and that's what we focus on is "Anti-fluff", design with a purpose, http://www.spectrumedia.com/different.php

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:28 AM): Well, Steve, that's a step in the right direction.

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (8/5/2002 9:28 AM): Anita, I will thanks

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:28 AM): I also pitch my branding services from that point of view, because so many branding hacks show no accountability for their work.

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (8/5/2002 9:28 AM): Getting a designer involved in marketing is like getting your car mechanic involved in planning your route to work.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (8/5/2002 9:28 AM): Stephen, that's how I get my work, from designers who are clueless about meta tags.

Rick (Kitty5 NewMedia) (8/5/2002 9:29 AM): another point would be the pop up book advert - what if i have a large font - i cannot see all your text. what if i am partially sighted - a popup is really confusing - and as for everyone else - a popup is just annoying

Ben Woodward (perpetuainteractive.com) (8/5/2002 9:29 AM): Pete: I wouldn't go that far. Graphic design, by definition, falls nicely into place with marketing. It's just not a replacement for it.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:30 AM): Rick, pop ups are annoying IF they ask you for stuff. My pops are simply summary pops. Letting you know what's inside. They don't ask you to sign up for anything. I haven't gotten any objections to them.

Ben Woodward (perpetuainteractive.com) (8/5/2002 9:30 AM): A "real" graphic designer starts with a result in mind. Many folks out there calling them selves designers jump right in without considering a clients' goals...

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:31 AM): Ben, I agree that design and marketing need to work hand in hand, but I believe that marketing should lead and design should respond to those leads.

Rick (Kitty5 NewMedia) (8/5/2002 9:31 AM): its not standard html, it doesn't even come close to any defined standards

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (8/5/2002 9:31 AM): It depends on what role the designer is taking. Traditionally, branding/marketing/sales would control the direction, and brief them the designers to do what they want. Designers shouldn't really be 'strategy' people.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (8/5/2002 9:31 AM): John, also take a look at TheWriteAgency.com for press releases and help.

Fred (8/5/2002 9:31 AM): not W3C then...

Rick (Kitty5 NewMedia) (8/5/2002 9:31 AM): my point with the popup is (for myself at least) is that it contains more text than will fit in the fixed popup window

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:31 AM): The question, Rick is whether the page is not displaying properly in browsers. That would be an issue for me.

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (8/5/2002 9:31 AM): Basically I just said what Rob said, lol.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:32 AM): I agree with Peter on that

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (8/5/2002 9:33 AM): That said, when I say 'designer'.. I mean someone who has made design their pure craft. Not one of the many design/marketing/branding/web development people we have these days.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:33 AM): BTW, just so you know that I do prefer to keep business in my own backyard, I did award the i-legions job to a FrankelBee....which I'll announce on the list today.

Ben Woodward (perpetuainteractive.com) (8/5/2002 9:33 AM): The designer's role is to take the goals a marketing person develops, and then "translate" that message into a visual or communicative medium. Like I said, too many designers these days seem to forgo that step and replace it with pretty pictures and spinning logos...

Rick (Kitty5 NewMedia) (8/5/2002 9:34 AM): it might be displaying properly in the browser(s) you have access to at this minute, but that's not the point

Fred (8/5/2002 9:34 AM): Surely the designers job is to give the client what they want with the largest potential market audience (i.e. it works on the most machines possible)

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:34 AM): I'll tell you how I deal with it: I give the designer a strategy and a rough comp...then I tell them, look, this is what I did with it. Now I need you to make it sing. Do what you do with this brand strategy. I don't care if they stay with my rough, but now they can see what they have to beat.

Ben Woodward (perpetuainteractive.com) (8/5/2002 9:35 AM): Actually Fred, it's usually more successful when the designer provides what the client's *customers* want.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:35 AM): What's the point Rick? I'm listening.....

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:35 AM): Dead on, Ben.

Ben Woodward (perpetuainteractive.com) (8/5/2002 9:36 AM): Rob: Sounds like you'd be a treat to work with -- good direction upfront, but not overpowering in the process. many clients either leave too much guesswork in the beginning or try to hold my hand through the process.

Fred (8/5/2002 9:36 AM): but more often than not clients don't know what customers want...so they waste money...get bad results and then whine at the developers...

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (8/5/2002 9:36 AM): Many clients have no idea what they want.

Rick (Kitty5 NewMedia) (8/5/2002 9:36 AM): the point is, your website is ONLY viable on the current crop of browsers which are designed to work around non standard poorly written code

John Charlesworth (BellaCoola.com Professional Web Tracking) (8/5/2002 9:37 AM): Ben - you're bang on. Often though, the only way to measure what the customers want is by measuring their behavior after-the-fact, retaining, measuring behavior.... (Lather rinse repeat)

Ben Woodward (perpetuainteractive.com) (8/5/2002 9:37 AM): I'll agree with that Fred... that's why designers should (ideally) be one step in a multi-part process for growing a company. Sometimes, it just doesn't work that way though, so you've gotta do the best you can with what the client has...

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:37 AM): Rick, what other browsers would I want? It works fine in IE 4+ NS3+ Mozilla and Opera. What's left?

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (8/5/2002 9:37 AM): Aren't we back to the initial point about how we know what customers want?

stephen@spectrumedia.com (8/5/2002 9:37 AM): 9 out of 10 times information is what the client want's and if this is the case why is there so much trash on the internet leading people away from the vital piece that they need and want

Rick (Kitty5 NewMedia) (8/5/2002 9:38 AM): and of those browser you don't know the individual users settings, you have no idea what your list looks like (or even if its usable)

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:38 AM): No Stephen, the customer may START out wanting information, but it's the site's job to convert that want into a sale.

Ben Woodward (perpetuainteractive.com) (8/5/2002 9:39 AM): You're right, John... that's why it's so important for designers to *talk* to clients before a project begins and get to know their business. Too many times, designers forget that, and decide beforehand what's "best" for the client.

Fred (8/5/2002 9:39 AM): well...if your right Stephen, the information on this site doesn't appear to be clear or concise...so by your standard this isn't a success...

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:39 AM): That's true, Ben, and nothing pisses off a client more than ANYONE telling them that "they know their business better" than the client does.

Fred (8/5/2002 9:40 AM): so....is this site professionally designed ??

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:40 AM): Which one, Fred?

Fred (8/5/2002 9:40 AM): and if so...what kind of professional ?

Terri Robinson (recruit2hire.com) (8/5/2002 9:40 AM): Rick, if web designers tried to factor in every single existing browser users settings when designing, they would probably all quit designing! *grin*

Fred (8/5/2002 9:40 AM): this one rob....

Rick (Kitty5 NewMedia) (8/5/2002 9:40 AM): i hope its not professionally designed - you should ask for a refund

John Charlesworth (BellaCoola.com Professional Web Tracking) (8/5/2002 9:40 AM): Ben - and *measure* actual conversion rates. Make a single change. Re-measure. Direct Marketing 101.

Tammy (8/5/2002 9:41 AM): Entered the room.

Ben Woodward (perpetuainteractive.com) (8/5/2002 9:41 AM): Completely correct, Rob. I always try to get to know the clients' business as well as possible, through questions, plant tours, looking through existing promotions, etc, etc, so I've got a pretty solid starting point. I wouldn't dream of trying to insist I knew better than the client... =)

Frederick (bspage.com) (8/5/2002 9:41 AM): back to Branding - How does one expose a small business brand on a world wide stage like the internet?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:41 AM): The chat? That's funny. What's not professional about this site?

Fred (8/5/2002 9:41 AM): to me it looks like someone has searched Google or about for some scripts and put them together....

Ben Woodward (perpetuainteractive.com) (8/5/2002 9:42 AM): John: the follow-up *is* very important as well... you're right. many designers tend to leave that out as well...

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (8/5/2002 9:42 AM): John, going back to press releases, I am reviewing an ebook called Press Releases From Hell. I'll let you know if it is worthwhile.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:42 AM): Fred, i learned long ago not to seek much in the way of compliments from you!!!

Fred (8/5/2002 9:42 AM): you could check out government departments for that one Anita....they are always putting their foot in it...

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (8/5/2002 9:42 AM): Anita, that would be very kind thank you

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (8/5/2002 9:43 AM): Print design has the same problems. Could a customer be colorblind? Could the customer even be blind? Could the customer have trouble reading small type? Eventually you just have to get on with it, instead of preaching about catering for every last person on the planet.

Pat Hardy (phardy.com) (8/5/2002 9:43 AM): Anita, I'd like some more information about the book you're reading as well.

Fred (8/5/2002 9:43 AM): rob...its not a compliment...nor an insult...it is my opinion...

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:43 AM): Regarding press releases, we just had a sponsor on FrankelBiz http://www.globalpresswire.com that does send out releases for a very low fee.

Frederick (bspage.com) (8/5/2002 9:43 AM): Fred and Frederick are two different people.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:43 AM): Peter, you're one smart dude.

Tammy (8/5/2002 9:44 AM): What of prweb.com? Anyone used their service?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:44 AM): Fred, you're consistent. I like that. And you're truthful. I like that even more.

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (8/5/2002 9:44 AM): Rob that's what prompted the question

Ben Woodward (perpetuainteractive.com) (8/5/2002 9:44 AM): So true, Pete. if every print designer were held to the same "standards" many web junkies preach, we'd have to print every brochure we did in Braille as well... just isn't practical. IT all comes down to your target audiences...

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (8/5/2002 9:44 AM): There is also a new software application that helps you write your own press releases.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:44 AM): I know, Frederick.

Rick (Kitty5 NewMedia) (8/5/2002 9:45 AM): this is not about catering for everyone on the planet, it about not presuming to know your users better than they do

Fred (8/5/2002 9:45 AM): as Winston Churchill said.....you can do anything to the truth and it will always be there....unchanged by attack

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (8/5/2002 9:45 AM): One of my clients used PR.web and was very happy with it.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:45 AM): John, you have to remember that just because a tool exists doesn't mean it necessarily the right tool for you to use. You have to examine who you're targeting. Then see if there's a fit.

Tammy (8/5/2002 9:45 AM): Thank you, I have checked into it, but unsure of the outcome

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (8/5/2002 9:45 AM): Personally I think the web could learn a lot form print designers, you never see a newspaper that's 40% white space :)

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:46 AM): I use Dan Janal's service and it's definitely been the best one for me

Tammy (8/5/2002 9:46 AM): Yet a print isn't an interactive medium

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:46 AM): I like the idea of reporters seeking me out to contribute to their articles. It's much more focused and the results are much better.

Ben Woodward (perpetuainteractive.com) (8/5/2002 9:46 AM): Gotta be careful though, Friar... two *completely* different mediums... with two different needs and limitations...

Fred (8/5/2002 9:47 AM): in most cases the web isn't interactive either...

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (8/5/2002 9:47 AM): But, Rob, you are great at writing press releases. Some of us aren't.

John Charlesworth (BellaCoola.com Professional Web Tracking) (8/5/2002 9:47 AM): Has anyone tried going straight to a wire service? PR Newswire? BusinessWire?

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (8/5/2002 9:47 AM): True enough, I'm trying to find the best way of targeting my chosen client type, i.e. small businesses in the UK

Rick (Kitty5 NewMedia) (8/5/2002 9:47 AM): and you never see a newspaper that fails to meet basic standards - such as readable type - to many people want the web to be a digital print - which its not

Tammy (8/5/2002 9:48 AM): I agree Fred, yet the web is exitable and offers the reader/ viewer to transport themselves to a different page upon a whim.

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (8/5/2002 9:48 AM): A tip.. I wrote a program about 4 years ago, and to test a banner ad section in it, I used an old banner of a press release company I found in it.. it was by accident, but they so impressed, they gave me free submissions ;-) Of course, it's different nowadays, but you might try to barter -if- your aims are compatible.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:48 AM): Anita, I SUCK at writing press releases. I don't write them. the reporters e-mail me with questions or call me.

Fred (8/5/2002 9:48 AM): but a newspaper is also out of date when it is printed...the advertising in news media is probably one of the most expensive advertising ways too...

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:49 AM): I don't send out releases anymore. I just have no way of knowing how successful they are. In fact, even the PR person I work with for i-legions spends all her time getting my articles published.

Tammy (8/5/2002 9:49 AM): Fatfriar, could you scan through new business license listings? To find target audience?

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (8/5/2002 9:50 AM): Rob: I used to work on a couple of publications. We read a lot of press releases.. but in the end, all we wanted were several important points and a single quote to make a story with... perhaps you could take that angle.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:50 AM): TEN MINUTE WARNING....

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (8/5/2002 9:50 AM): How do I get reporters to find me?

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (8/5/2002 9:51 AM): Tammy, not sure where to get them from but I'll look into it thanks

Rick (Kitty5 NewMedia) (8/5/2002 9:51 AM): new biz licence are typically poor - don't have the money for a pro job - you get the same reaction i am from rob - i do my own site, i am thrilled with it, what could a professional possibly do for me

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:51 AM): Peter, I'm as guilty as the next guy when it comes to writing press releases. I want to publicize my gig. It's a terrible discipline to try to write around your own gig and hope an editor gets the point.

Pat Hardy (phardy.com) (8/5/2002 9:51 AM): Anita - good questions. I'd like to know this too.

Fred (8/5/2002 9:51 AM): another problem with the print media is it is read by rivals who then call up and try to sell you space

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:51 AM): Anita, use this tracking URL to get to Dan's site: http://www.1shoppingcart.com/app/aftrack.asp?afid=20861

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (8/5/2002 9:51 AM): Anita: The best method is to find -them-. They actually need to get info to do their jobs :)

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:51 AM): This way Dan knows I sent you.

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (8/5/2002 9:51 AM): I -really- recommend 'Press Here' by Annie Gurton (try Amazon).. it's an amazing guide to getting good press.

Tammy (8/5/2002 9:51 AM): Anita, write articles in your level of expertise. And market your articles separate from your site/ business, that way you are an expert not just advertising your services?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:52 AM): Peter, this service is so cool: Dan actually filters the reporters' queries according to your specialty, so you only get the reporters that really need you. Consequently, they tend to contact you more frequently.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (8/5/2002 9:52 AM): I have written articles for several other sites. I also have an ezine.

Tammy (8/5/2002 9:53 AM): have you had responses?

John Charlesworth (BellaCoola.com Professional Web Tracking) (8/5/2002 9:53 AM): Has anyone tried going straight to a wire service? PR Newswire? BusinessWire?

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (8/5/2002 9:53 AM): Tammy, none that I can trace back to those articles.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:53 AM): I write articles, but I have my PR person pitch them. It really helps to have a third party doing the bragging for you.

Tammy (8/5/2002 9:54 AM): sorry, I meant from offline any responses from your articles

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (8/5/2002 9:54 AM): John C., the newswires have very specific requirements.

John Charlesworth (BellaCoola.com Professional Web Tracking) (8/5/2002 9:54 AM): Rob - didn't you once say that your initial contact letters are written in the 3rd person too?

Tammy (8/5/2002 9:54 AM): Yes I agree with you Rob

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:54 AM): And the newswires is very expensive, in comparison to other services.

John Charlesworth (BellaCoola.com Professional Web Tracking) (8/5/2002 9:55 AM): Anita - thanks. I was looking at BusinessWire and it looked promising.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (8/5/2002 9:55 AM): I have had work come from a lecture I gave about search engines.

Tammy (8/5/2002 9:55 AM): Anita, have you offered your articles as free updateable content for other sites? This allows free advertising for you and branding

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:55 AM): Yes John. I have my initial contact letters written by my Virtual Assistant, in which she introduces me and asks if we can set up a call.

John Charlesworth (BellaCoola.com Professional Web Tracking) (8/5/2002 9:55 AM): Rob - ah yes. Mucho moulah required...

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (8/5/2002 9:55 AM): BusinessWire is an excellent source as it feeds many other services both online and off.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (8/5/2002 9:56 AM): Tammy, I write for a site called clickforcontent.com which does this as well.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:56 AM): Out f over 3,000 contacts, a total of three have responded with some snotty remark like, If Rob's so good, how come he can't write his own letters? Which I think is funny as hell. It lets you know how totally UNprofessional many of these large companies are

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (8/5/2002 9:56 AM): I say, is there any easy way that FrankelBees can share and swap business advice and tips/our own articles with each other? The sort of stuff that if we put on the larger Web, it'd dilute its usefulness.. but would be great to share with each other.

stephen@spectrumedia.com (8/5/2002 9:56 AM): Nice chatting with you all see you next week!

Tammy (8/5/2002 9:56 AM): I see,

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:57 AM): Peter, now THAT is an idea worth considering.

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (8/5/2002 9:57 AM): Not treading on FrankelTips' toes, of course!

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:58 AM): I can put together a searchable list of articles by FrankelBees for publication. That's very interesting, Peter.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (8/5/2002 9:58 AM): How about a second group like Frankel Biz?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:58 AM): Peter, nothing treads on FrankelTips because it's not open to the public. These articles would be for publication and publicity.

Tammy (8/5/2002 9:58 AM): Good idea

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:58 AM): TWO MINUTES

Terri Robinson (recruit2hire.com) (8/5/2002 9:59 AM): Cool, Rob! Can I get my latest article "How Recruiting is Like Remodeling" on it? *grin*

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (8/5/2002 9:59 AM): You can call it Frankel Bees.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:59 AM): Of course, Terri. Let me ponder the structure here

Fred (8/5/2002 9:59 AM): recruiting what Terri ?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 9:59 AM): I already own Frankelbees.com

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (8/5/2002 9:59 AM): I only mention it because I can see we have some people with highly specific knowledge here.. like PR knowledge, design knowledge etc.. and with help, we can navigate all the minefields from each other's advice.

Ben Woodward (perpetuainteractive.com) (8/5/2002 10:00 AM): I've got tons of content on creativity in business I can toss in as well. =)

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 10:00 AM): This is true. Let me think on it a bit.

Rick (Kitty5 NewMedia) (8/5/2002 10:00 AM): this chat script causes a memory leak in IE .......

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (8/5/2002 10:00 AM): Bye, people. I've gotta get back to work.

Fred (8/5/2002 10:00 AM): a company perspective could be..."recruiting why companies should feel fleeced"

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (8/5/2002 10:00 AM): looking for a developer rob :)

Peter Cooper (peter@boog.co.uk) (8/5/2002 10:00 AM): ZERO MINUTES ;-)

Pat Hardy (phardy.com) (8/5/2002 10:00 AM): Rick, what version of IE are you using?

Terri Robinson (recruit2hire.com) (8/5/2002 10:00 AM): good thought, Fred!

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 10:01 AM): Okay, thanks everyone for this great session. I personally got a great value out of it in the last two minutes!

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 10:01 AM): John, you looking to hire one or find one or be one?

Rick (Kitty5 NewMedia) (8/5/2002 10:01 AM): IE6

Terri Robinson (recruit2hire.com) (8/5/2002 10:01 AM): Bye for now, everyone! See you all next week! Awesome session today!

John Charlesworth (BellaCoola.com Professional Web Tracking) (8/5/2002 10:01 AM): See ya!

Fred (8/5/2002 10:01 AM): what about the other 58 ?

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (8/5/2002 10:01 AM): Cya everyone and thanks

Pat Hardy (phardy.com) (8/5/2002 10:01 AM): Have a good week.

Ben Woodward (perpetuainteractive.com) (8/5/2002 10:01 AM): See you, everyone... =)

Pat Hardy (phardy.com) (8/5/2002 10:01 AM): Rick - Ok. I'm using 5.5 No problems here.

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (8/5/2002 10:02 AM): Just offering my services

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (8/5/2002 10:02 AM): Bye folks!

Rick (Kitty5 NewMedia) (8/5/2002 10:02 AM): be in touch

Pat Hardy (phardy.com) (8/5/2002 10:02 AM): Bye Rob.

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