Transcript of Frankel's Free Clinic August 14, 2000

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 8:59 AM): I can't believe I'm early. Thought for sure I'd be late....

weber (8/14/2000 8:59 AM): Hi Rob

Terri Robinson ( (8/14/2000 8:59 AM): are you on the go today, Rob?

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:00 AM): Greetings, all. Hey Roan, what can I do for you this morning?

weber (8/14/2000 9:00 AM): I've been watching the discussion on I advertising <ReBranding>

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:00 AM): Yes, Terri, got a ton of stuff, including a meeting for tomorrow's Webinar....

Steve Siegel (8/14/2000 9:00 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:01 AM): Yeah, Weber, it pretty much proves the whole confusion about branding.

Roan (8/14/2000 9:01 AM): Not a thing Rob, thanks. Found your site last week and bought your book. I thought I would listen in.

weber (8/14/2000 9:01 AM): some of those ad agency people wheeeeew!

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:01 AM): Okie doke, Roan. We always let the new people go first, so if you DO have anything, just jump in...

Terri Robinson ( (8/14/2000 9:01 AM): I'm really looking forward to that tomorrow, Rob!

Steve Siegel (8/14/2000 9:02 AM): Hello room!

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:02 AM): Same thing for you, Steve.

Steve Siegel (8/14/2000 9:02 AM): Anybody know where I can find info about how intangibles like branding relate to balance sheets / financials?

Andy TeBockhorst ( (8/14/2000 9:02 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:03 AM): Terri, it's a sponsored event. Lumapath has a pretty nifty techno-tool, which they'll talk about later, after my schtick.

weber (8/14/2000 9:03 AM): Do you think that branding on the web is different from branding off the web?

Andy TeBockhorst ( (8/14/2000 9:03 AM): Hey now, who's cutting on ad agency people?

Steve Siegel (8/14/2000 9:03 AM): Rob, I surfed your site last week and am "wow-ed"

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:03 AM): Steve, you

weber (8/14/2000 9:03 AM): Andy, I said some

Terri Robinson ( (8/14/2000 9:04 AM): Hey Andy! Rob, I read a bit about them - they seem to have some really good stuff there

Andy TeBockhorst ( (8/14/2000 9:04 AM): Hi Terri

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:04 AM): Steve, you'll find that the branding shows up in things like higher "per sale" visits, lower customer acquisition costs, too. Those are the most immediate.

Jeff (jeffw (8/14/2000 9:05 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:05 AM): Among the MOST tangible though, are the front end lower costs: the clearer the brand, the more efficient everyone working for the brand are: ad agency, PR, web designers -- the whole staff understands the mission more clearly.

Steve Siegel (8/14/2000 9:05 AM): That's good. Has anyone like the AICPA ever tried to quantify that?

Jeff ( (8/14/2000 9:06 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:06 AM): Nobody can quantify stuff like that, but I can tell you anecdotally this is what my LIFE is like!

Andy TeBockhorst ( (8/14/2000 9:07 AM): Rob, I've decided to have a bit of a clearance sale... all of the URLs I've registered over the last year (every time I got a hair-brained idea.) I've decided I'd rather have a houseboat... any tips on selling URLs?

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:07 AM): If you've ever had a staff hiring assignment, you know that some employees "get it" and some don't. A clear, articulate brand saves you months of lost productivity when you hire right the first time.

Steve Siegel (8/14/2000 9:08 AM): You mean, explaining these concepts to potential clients?

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:08 AM): Andy, even though I publish DOMAINIA every so often, I can tell you that the only reliable way I've found to sell a URL is to wait for the call...

Steve Siegel (8/14/2000 9:08 AM): Good point. We've all been there.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:09 AM): Steve, when I get in front of a client, I go into the huge number of areas in which a clear brand helps them -- internally and externally. Once they see that, they're pretty much sold.

Virginia Reeves (8/14/2000 9:10 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:10 AM): Andy, I haven't known or seen anyone who sold them through GreatDomains or Shoutloud...and some of the URL's I've got are pretty nifty....

Steve Siegel (8/14/2000 9:10 AM): I'll be giving a talk in front of a group of accountants. Those guys like to see bottom line impact.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:10 AM): Although for grins, you can go to and get a free "instant evaluation"....what a joke.

Andy TeBockhorst ( (8/14/2000 9:10 AM): I've registered a few with FGreatDomains, but I've never heard of Shoutloud... can't hurt to get them listed!

Andy TeBockhorst ( (8/14/2000 9:11 AM): Sorry Steve... didn't mean to butt in.

Terri Robinson ( (8/14/2000 9:11 AM): It's pretty hard to show bottom line impact for brand, isn't it Rob?

Steve Siegel (8/14/2000 9:12 AM): No problem whatsoever. I'm just chatting away.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:12 AM): Steve, you may want to ask the accountants about the effects of NOT branding....they may see the benefits more in the savings of lost time and productivity. For example, strong brands have strong internal programs that -- once sold through the staff -- make the biz run way more efficiently.

Roan (8/14/2000 9:12 AM): Can't you show the opposite? The damage done for poor or no branding?

Andy TeBockhorst ( (8/14/2000 9:12 AM): Same with much of marketing... advertising, promotions etc. are constantly looking for ways to justify their existence.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:13 AM): And don't forget the "when the economy goes into the toilet" argument. When price is the only criteria for a customer, they leave for lowest price. But when you give them other criteria, they invest in that. When the economy goes south, well-branded suffer least.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:13 AM): Roan, that's the most painful example of suffering for NOT branding.

Andy TeBockhorst ( (8/14/2000 9:13 AM): Most "Accountant Types" understand they are a necessary thing, but it's hard for them to attach a meaningful number to it.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:14 AM): Another line of reasoning is like insurance -- what's the "bottom line benefit" there?

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:15 AM): Steve, I can give yet another example: the FrankelBiz list is a very well-branded culture. Because it is, our response rates for advertisers is way higher than almost any other list out there.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:16 AM): Hi Virginia -- anything on your mind you want to discuss?

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:18 AM): The key, is turning users into evangelists. That's what makes it fun -- and effective. We are, after all, dealing with humans, not ledgers.

Steve Siegel (8/14/2000 9:19 AM): Is the "investment curve" to establishing a brand similar to a learning curve? (Lots of investment up front; somewhat lower to maintain)?

Andy TeBockhorst ( (8/14/2000 9:19 AM): Rob, does that work when you tell accountants? They always look at me like it's baloney.

Steve Siegel (8/14/2000 9:19 AM): Good point. Rob, don't tell the "bean counters" that!

Andy TeBockhorst ( (8/14/2000 9:20 AM): Luckily I usually have a corporate marketing guy in there with me who smiles and says "yeah" a lot

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:20 AM): Yup, exactly, Steve. ALL of the work has to be done up front, because that's the blueprint for virtually everything else in the company. And yes Andy, it does work when I tell accountants. Maybe because I've given the speech so many times....

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:21 AM): I tend to take it from THEIR point of much of what I do shows up in making their jobs easier. Most are affected by my ability to show how the brands affect their day to day business concerns. They're happy to find I'm not one of those New Age Designers who feed them bullshit all day long with no business experience....

Steve Siegel (8/14/2000 9:21 AM): Rob, when do suppose Coca-Cola started actually thinking about -- and planning for -- "brand?"

Terri Robinson ( (8/14/2000 9:22 AM): Steve, I would think that the difference in Coke's sales as compared to say RC would be a perfect example of what branding can do to the bottom line

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:22 AM): You have to remember that most accountant types have been given a lecture by people who think branding is a logo -- no wonder they make it hard for us true practitioners.

Steve Siegel (8/14/2000 9:23 AM): Terri: Yes. And Coke has a pretty impressive distribution network, too.

Roan (8/14/2000 9:23 AM): Rob, I do have a question about one's personal brand vs. employer's brand. It seems that, in this economy where we switch employers fairly often, it's important to have a strong personal brand independent of your employer. I have been wondering how best to accomplish this in a professional setting where your employer's company name and URL are often so strongly attached to yours in all communications.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:23 AM): Steve, I don't believe they ever did -- at least not in my terms. Coca Cola has always been a sales-driven, tactical company. They have high awareness and saber-toothed salesmen. They literally buy their way into territories and pay to keep competitors out.

weber (8/14/2000 9:24 AM): I think Coke has been branding for many years. They held the first copyright for a stylized bottle

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:24 AM): Roan, you're talking like a closet entrepreneur!

Roan (8/14/2000 9:25 AM): <grin>

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:25 AM): Chances are Roan, that within five years, you won't be working for any company other than your own. That's good. It worked for me.

Steve Siegel (8/14/2000 9:25 AM): Roan: Interesting question. Rob: I have always viewed Coke as a branded (in your terms) product.

JEFF - Again! (8/14/2000 9:25 AM): Entered the room.

Joel ( (8/14/2000 9:25 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:26 AM): Steve, Coke has a high awareness, but no real brand. Unless you can tell me why people choose Coke. And almost nobody ever can.

Joel ( (8/14/2000 9:26 AM): Good Morning Everyone!

Andy TeBockhorst ( (8/14/2000 9:26 AM): Oh I love that!

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:26 AM): Roan, you're smart if you plan your personal brand now and attach it to everything you do within your company now. There are lots of ways to do that.

Steve Siegel (8/14/2000 9:26 AM): Because "Coke is it." ;-)

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:27 AM): Steve, people know about cancer, too, but they almost never ask for it.

Andy TeBockhorst ( (8/14/2000 9:27 AM): Rob, I will be stealing your Coke analogy and using it frequently... just thought you should know.

JEFF - Again! (8/14/2000 9:27 AM): Rob, our firm does comprehensive wealth plans for physicians, most of whom don't like technology. Our branding approach would be towards "centers of influence" - where we can get public speaking gigs. Any branding suggestions?

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:27 AM): Andy, I expect nothing less from you!

Roan (8/14/2000 9:27 AM): Actually, I'm self employed now, but considering regular employment for the stock opportunities. How do I protect my personal brand while serving my company's branding needs?

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:27 AM): Just make sure you attach my URL to your quote!

Andy TeBockhorst ( (8/14/2000 9:28 AM): you got it!

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:28 AM): Jeff, I'd have to know more about the company before I could even start making suggestions. Overall, however, I'd do what you can to bolster credibility.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:29 AM): Roan, am I psychic, or what?

Steve Siegel (8/14/2000 9:29 AM): Roan, I'd guess that your personal brand and your new company's brand need not be mutually exclusive. The trick is finding a company that matches your personal vision, ethics, and morals well.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:29 AM): Roan, I don't know what you do for a living, so it's hard for me to tell. On the other hand, I can say that I don't work for any one and plenty of people throw stock my way. I usually just don't take it....

JEFF - Again! (8/14/2000 9:30 AM): Re: Coke - It's only branding if people can explain WHY they want something?

Roan (8/14/2000 9:31 AM): Rob, I'm a web developer with a strong online marketing background. I see it too often where people become too strongly associated with their employer and drop off the face of the earth when they change jobs. That concerns me.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:31 AM): Taking an equity stake in a company used to be really cool, but almost nobody made real money from that phase. I mean, when you take the market as a whole, very few people made money and even fewer kept it. Look at the #2 guy who just left Amazon.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:31 AM): The reason he left? All his options were worth less than you can buy Amazon stock on the market today....

Andy TeBockhorst ( (8/14/2000 9:32 AM): Jeff, Go to a restaurant and ask for Coke. If they say "Is Pepsi OK?" 90% will say yes.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:32 AM): Roan, as far as I'm concerned, you're dead on target. I agree. That's why I left the ad agency game years ago -- making other people rich so they can dump me when times get rough? Feh!

Steve Siegel (8/14/2000 9:34 AM): Rob, besides "Revenge of Brand X" what are your favorite "brand" books or resources or authors?

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:34 AM): Here's what I did when I was in that predicament: I did what I could to build my portfolio and my relationships as fast as possible. I branded myself by creating work that was clearly different from everyone else's in the company -- and believe me, they knew.

Steve Siegel (8/14/2000 9:34 AM): That's for the rest of the room, too.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:35 AM): Steve, I have no favorite branding books, which is one reason I wrote mine. I am, however, extremely grateful to Trout and Ries, if only because their books on Amazon have helped my book sales explode!

Terri Robinson ( (8/14/2000 9:35 AM): Rob, it goes along with "relationship building", I think. Companies that worked with me at staffing agencies would follow me to a new agency because of the relationship "I" had built with them. Isn't that a sort of "personal brand"?

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:35 AM): One of the reasons I have no other favorites is that no others seem to really have evolved since 1970. They're still old world models that are obsolete.

JEFF - Again! (8/14/2000 9:36 AM): So Rob, unless you've created the clear image in your customer's mind that you are THE solution to quenching their thirst (or whatever) you don't have a brand? What about IMAGE (I think that's 7-UPs latest deal)

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:36 AM): Yes, Terri. And if you work in an environment where your workproduct is tangible (like Rona's web designs, my ads, your relationships) you're way better off when people ask you, "how were you so different at that company? How would I know your work?"

Terri Robinson ( (8/14/2000 9:37 AM): Jeff, 7-up was smart to use their "un-Cola" image, I think :)

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:37 AM): Jeff, I'm glad you brought up 7-Up. I talk about them in the book. Now there's a company that had a great brand and let it get away.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:38 AM): People today are STILL talking about 7-up as the "un-cola" -- a brand position that they abandoned in the 1970's!

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:38 AM): Aha! See/ We all know how old Terri is now!!!! <G>

weber (8/14/2000 9:39 AM): But the taste of 7UP is also a factor, and the taste is not so good in my opinion.

Terri Robinson ( (8/14/2000 9:39 AM): *laffin* okay okay.. no age discrimination now!!

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:39 AM): If you ever get the chance to see that campaign, you should. It was flawless and rocketed 7-Up to major market share.

JEFF - Again! (8/14/2000 9:40 AM): Is taste a brand? I thought brand when you are perceived as THE solution?

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:40 AM): Weber, forget the taste -- people had a reason to ask for 7-Up. They had a tangible motivation to prefer it. If some liked the taste, so much the better, but at least they had a clear brand difference and identity.

Terri Robinson ( (8/14/2000 9:41 AM): taste is nothing to do with how you are perceived initially, I think. And lemon-lime anything isn't my favorite <G>

weber (8/14/2000 9:41 AM): But what good is a great brand if the product sucks?

weber (8/14/2000 9:41 AM): Why would you want to order it again?

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:41 AM): No Jeff, the thing with 7-Up was that it was NOT a cola. It was cleaner, and more importantly, part of a statement: you took pride in not ordering what everyone else ordered. Much as what Volkswagen did in the 1950' and what Apple is doing now.

Andy TeBockhorst ( (8/14/2000 9:42 AM): Did anyone see the story on NBC last week about Moxie. Moxie is a soft drink that apparently tastes pretty awful, but it's been around forever. The story was about the annual Moxie festival. I was very impressed with their branding. Everyone was drinking the stuff even thought they hated it!

JEFF - Again! (8/14/2000 9:42 AM): So, Branding is about identity, the product is as much who YOU are, as what IT is?

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:43 AM): Weber, now you're talking about sales. That's not branding. All we're concerned about is why people think 7-Up is different. If people hate clear water, they may not buy it, but they know what it is and how to make a decision based on that. That's branding's job.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:43 AM): Yeah, Jeff, that brings it closer to home.

weber (8/14/2000 9:44 AM): So branding is only to introduce yourself, product, whatever; to your potential customers?

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:44 AM): As opposed to Mountain Dew, which is simply latching onto a demographic (kids) with an ad campaign featuring extreme sports.

Terri Robinson ( (8/14/2000 9:44 AM): Andy, I never heard of Moxie - but I also never watch TV <G>

Steve Siegel (8/14/2000 9:45 AM): Rob and Room, this has been a great time. Thanks for all the questions and answers. Unfortunately, I've gotta run. See ya 'round.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:45 AM): More than that, Weber, it has to -- in one broad stroke -- make them realize why you're the best solution for their problem. It's not as easy as drawing a new logo.

Andy TeBockhorst ( (8/14/2000 9:45 AM): Come again, Steve... good discussion today.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:46 AM): Any time, Steve -- actually Mondays.....

weber (8/14/2000 9:46 AM): Shouldn't it also reinforce their decision to choose you?

Andy TeBockhorst ( (8/14/2000 9:46 AM): Rob, you're east coast, aren't you? Ever heard of Moxie?

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:46 AM): Virginia, you still here? Want to jump in at all?

Joel ( (8/14/2000 9:47 AM): Rob: wouldn't you agree that branding has two aspects: corporate image and product positioning?

JEFF - Again! (8/14/2000 9:47 AM): I always thought that the Mountain Dew extreme sports connection was cause the kids were pumped up on caffeine 55 mg vs. 45.6 mg for coke)

Steve Siegel (8/14/2000 9:47 AM): It's in my PalmPilot... forever Monday at 9:00!

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:47 AM): Yes, where it can, Weber. But I can tell you right now that no matter how good the asparagus, I'm not eating it. I may, however, recommend one brand of asparagus to you over another,

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:47 AM): No Joel, it's all one. It runs through everything.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:48 AM): Andy, I'm west coast: my body was born in Los Angeles, but my soul was born in Brooklyn

Terri Robinson ( (8/14/2000 9:48 AM): Jeff, Mountain Dew is a radically different product - I think kids are attracted to it because it IS so different than what their parents like!

Andy TeBockhorst ( (8/14/2000 9:48 AM): Well that explains your aversion to Asparagus.

weber (8/14/2000 9:49 AM): Like with IBM, in the past there was a saying "You can't get fired for choosing IBM" this was even if there was a better solution you believed in, and was proven to work better.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:49 AM): Weber -- NOW you got it.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:50 AM): (TEN MINUTE WARNING)

JEFF - Again! (8/14/2000 9:50 AM): Maybe that's what attracts people to Moxie - it sucks and no one else wants it

Andy TeBockhorst ( (8/14/2000 9:51 AM): OK Rob, I finally broke down and just ordered your book. I'm a lazy reader... how about an audio version for us lazies.

Joel ( (8/14/2000 9:51 AM): Except when IBM produced a good photocopier... it didn't sell because their image was that of a computer company

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:51 AM): There was once a cleaning product called Lestoil, whose tag was "if it didn't smell so bad, it wouldn't work so good."

Terri Robinson ( (8/14/2000 9:51 AM): look at Xerox - it isn't the only copier out there, but everyone associates copiers with them (8/14/2000 9:52 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:52 AM): Andy, I've been approached by some people to do an audio version, but I haven't seen any real demand there. It would be great for blind folks, for real -- some of whom have asked for it. (8/14/2000 9:52 AM): only if the recording came with an 8x10 glossy so we could see and hear the master! (Hi, Rob!)

Andy TeBockhorst ( (8/14/2000 9:52 AM): I have a feeling this will be one I actually finish.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:53 AM): Uh-oh -- cool it...Jo Anna just walked in....up a little early today, eh dear?

Joel ( (8/14/2000 9:53 AM): That's right, but Xerox also had a computer. Again it didn't sell because everyone associated it as a photocopier company

Andy TeBockhorst ( (8/14/2000 9:53 AM): Where you been JoAnna? (8/14/2000 9:53 AM): I've been lurking for an hour... it's fun just watching.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:54 AM): Xerox could write a book about all the technology it invented and blew: mainly, the whole icon operating system that Apple based its entire technology on. (8/14/2000 9:54 AM): ...uh,. reading.

Joel ( (8/14/2000 9:54 AM): Hi JoAnna: How have you been? (8/14/2000 9:54 AM): I will lurk from time to time... and I pass the FrankelBiz leads around to all my friends.

Andy TeBockhorst ( (8/14/2000 9:55 AM): Don't take offense JoAnna, but I have to leave now. Thanks as usual gang... next week. (8/14/2000 9:55 AM): Hi, everyone, I'm great, hope you are too.... let's not turn the last 5 mins into a reunion...

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:55 AM): JoAnna, I don't offer glossies, but I DO have the Obnoxious Bobbing Head rubber stamp, which I use at book signings....Joel has one!

weber (8/14/2000 9:55 AM): Take care Andy

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:55 AM): Still waiting to see if Virginia will jump in here....

Andy TeBockhorst ( (8/14/2000 9:56 AM): I'm learning flash... everyone go to

JEFF - Again! (8/14/2000 9:56 AM): Gotta go - have a great week - thanks! (8/14/2000 9:56 AM): I just had to speak up on that one. (rubber stamp? like a virtual tattoo?)

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:57 AM): This I gotta see!

Terri Robinson ( (8/14/2000 9:57 AM): Rob, I have been visiting as an expert over at to help promote my "personal brand"

Joel ( (8/14/2000 9:57 AM): Yes indeed. It's great! Rob's stamp is the brand man's brand.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:57 AM): (TWO MINUTES) Yeah? (8/14/2000 9:58 AM): Andy that is one sick cartoon. *I didn't hear anything, is there supposed to be noise?

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:58 AM): My wife suggested I "brand" instead of sign. I do both. But this way, you know it's legit!

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:58 AM): Sick is good. Sick works.

Terri Robinson ( (8/14/2000 9:59 AM): really! look at Andy Warhol! <G>

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 9:59 AM): I didn't get any sound either, though.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 10:00 AM): Okay folks, great session today! I've gotta split, too. I'll see you online! And maybe at tomorrow's Webinar! Remember, it's live via phone and web.

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 10:00 AM): Reserve your space at:

weber (8/14/2000 10:00 AM): Take care all

Terri Robinson ( (8/14/2000 10:00 AM): thanks, Rob! great session! See you all next week!

Rob Frankel ( (8/14/2000 10:01 AM):

Joel ( (8/14/2000 10:01 AM): Gotta go. Client on phone. Thanks Rob!

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