Transcript of Frankel's Free Clinic August 16, 1999

RobFrankel (8/16/99 8:59 AM): Entered the room.

Terri ( (8/16/99 8:59 AM): Good morning Rob! (8/16/99 8:59 AM): 18 yr old genius? Do you really gotta be a genius to do that? or does that make me just wanna hate him/her? (8/16/99 9:00 AM): HEEEEEEEY, Rob! Good Morning! The Breakfast Club is here!

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:00 AM): Greetings...early today. Must be something in the air..

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:00 AM): Well, maybe she will remember you when she wants to do an article on the other side of the coin, JoAnna!

Jacob (8/16/99 9:00 AM): Entered the room.

Jacob (8/16/99 9:00 AM): Good morning. (8/16/99 9:01 AM): O-Ha-LA! (Spanish for "God Willing"!)

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:01 AM): Hey, I couldn't help reading the bit about the 18 year old genius....Let's not forget that most 18 year olds have a lot of time to sit around and become geniuses.

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:02 AM): The rest of us have to earn a living! (8/16/99 9:02 AM): Jacob, you're like a conscience -- do you know I've got that email but I haven't even opened it yet? as soon as I log off of the FB, I'm all yours.

Kieran (8/16/99 9:02 AM): Entered the room.

Benjamin Fitts ( (8/16/99 9:02 AM): JoAnna you should have pointed them my way.. I just went through the job hunting ordeal

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:02 AM): *laffin* that's the truth, Rob! (8/16/99 9:02 AM): Ahoy from across the seas, Kieran!

Jacob (8/16/99 9:02 AM): Thanks JoAnna! I try my best. And take your time, no worries.

Kieran (8/16/99 9:02 AM): Good morning all. (8/16/99 9:03 AM): and how did it go, Benjamin?

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:03 AM): So what's the latest issue that I might help out with...or are we just settling in with our first coffee of the morning?

Kieran (8/16/99 9:04 AM): Top o' the mornin' to you, Joanna!

BenFury ( (8/16/99 9:04 AM): Entered the room.

Benjamin Fitts ( (8/16/99 9:04 AM): After 56 unsolicited hits from recruiters I tried to remove my resume.. (8/16/99 9:04 AM): With the high we all seem to be on, coffee is superfluous! (my 50 cent word of the day) (8/16/99 9:05 AM): yeah, the standard recruiter is no better than a hovering vulture -- am I right, Terri?

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:05 AM): first coffee here! *grin* but I am wondering Rob, where would you recommend advertising for members to a networking list? I'd like to grow the subscriber base fast - and cheap of course!

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:05 AM): Weird, isn't it? There are days when everything looks up and up and then days when the same stuff looks absolutely hopeless. Part of the independent culture... (8/16/99 9:06 AM): I did my postcards, Rob... Terri said they don't really suck too bad...

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:06 AM): yep! the "standard" ones - which of course we aren't JoAnna! *grin* (8/16/99 9:06 AM): AMEN, Terri!

Muhammad( (8/16/99 9:06 AM): Entered the room.

BenFury ( (8/16/99 9:06 AM): I believe something wonderful is going to happen to me today! (and if I'm wrong, I don't want to know!)

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:07 AM): Terri, one of the most rejected posts I have on FB is from recruiters trying to post job opps. (8/16/99 9:07 AM): The prototype page is at

Muhammad( (8/16/99 9:07 AM): Morning Fellow Bees....

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:07 AM): The big problem is that the word "networking" communicates "MLM" and other sub-ethical practices.

Kieran (8/16/99 9:07 AM): Entered the room.

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:07 AM): *sigh* I know Rob!! I've had a rejection or two .. but I'm getting more creative with my posts *grin* (8/16/99 9:08 AM): ROB - SEND THEM TO US!!! Terri and I would love to post jobs for them!

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:08 AM): this is networking for businesses - real world events like seminars and that type of thing (8/16/99 9:08 AM): Terri - put your ICQ on!?!?!? (8/16/99 9:09 AM):

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:09 AM): Terri, have you subbed to the ezine lists like zine-talk?

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:09 AM): oops! sorry JoAnna - had the wrong one up!

Benjamin Fitts ( (8/16/99 9:09 AM): Jacob what ever happened to the young NY entrepreneurs?

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:10 AM): JoAnna, how many jobs do you have???

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:10 AM): yes, Rob - and looking for new ones all the time

Jacob (8/16/99 9:10 AM): Fizzled out Benjamin, just one in a long line of ideas. some work some don't (8/16/99 9:10 AM): you mean, jobs that I do, or jobs that I've posted on my site?

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:11 AM): And are you looking to post jobs for candidates or to advertise your business?

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:12 AM): Advertising my business really - I am not having problems with getting good candidates (8/16/99 9:12 AM): I've been trying to formulate a special pkg. for FrankelBees, but I haven't come up with anything I like enough (8/16/99 9:13 AM): I want to post jobs. Terri and I are very symbiotic = she has candidates, I specialize in job postings

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:14 AM): Well, Terri, with all the spending behind Monsterboard and CareerCentral,have you at least explored the option of advertising there?

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:14 AM): JoAnna, I have offered a 33% discount off my services for another group I belong to

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:14 AM): The only reason I bring them up is that you might as well take advantage of the millions they spend getting out there using offline media...

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:15 AM): Be careful with discounting too much. Lopping off to much gives the impression that your entire fee is inflated....

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:16 AM): I have checked on it Rob.. but I think more candidates look there than customers I'm afraid

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:16 AM): Terri, do you specialize in a certain field?

Benjamin Fitts ( (8/16/99 9:16 AM): Monsterboard is almost entirely overwhelmed by recruiters

Benjamin Fitts ( (8/16/99 9:17 AM): Of the 56 inquiries I had only 2 or 3 where from actual jobs, the rest were recruiters.

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:17 AM): my fee is less than my competitors .. this discount is for AZ business members but it doesn't LOOK like 33% - 10% instead of my usual 15% (8/16/99 9:18 AM): those big boards are getting to be PATHETIC, that's where I'm finding the niche...

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:18 AM): My theory on networks is this: the web makes it pretty easy to find stuff that works (or is popular). If you can't find it, it may not be worthwhile.

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:18 AM): I specialize in Sales professionals Rob

BenFury ( (8/16/99 9:18 AM): Benjamin, have you tried any boards that get mostly legitimate hits?

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:19 AM): Terri, if you specialize in AZ sales pros, then you should begin by offering your own network. If you build it slowly and carefully, it will serve two purposes:

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:20 AM): First, it gives you a reason to contact potential customers "to be included" for free. That's a no-cost service to them. It also begins to build your database.

Benjamin Fitts ( (8/16/99 9:20 AM): I tried several boards, and gave up on all of them and went through established recruiters

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:20 AM): I use Netscape's NetCenter which is connected to Monsterboard somehow.. I contact the companies then and offer them a specific candidate with my contact info.. have begun building a small network that way, but no sales yet

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:21 AM): The hardest things (for me) is making contact. But once you do -- and you pay it out with your services -- the referrals begin. This is why FrankelBiz is the size it is today.

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:21 AM): But Terri, if you build your own center -- backed by personal contact -- these people will prefer to come to you. And refer people, too. (8/16/99 9:22 AM): How big IS FrankelBiz today, Rob?

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:22 AM): The way you're going to get profitable is by people going to your site and trying to make a connection through that site.

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:22 AM): And offer to list the company contact info and jobs for free, Rob? Or am I confused on what you're saying here?

BenFury ( (8/16/99 9:22 AM): Trust is the key. It took me a while of visiting Frankel before I had enough trust to refer people to it.

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:23 AM): It's in the thousands, JoAnna. Not huge by any standards, but amazing when you think that it is totally referral driven. (8/16/99 9:24 AM): Terri, you want to do the OPPOSITE of what I'm doing... I post resumes free, but charge for job postings

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:24 AM): Terri, if I were you, I'd allow free access to your network, with no identifying names -- just numbers. That way you protect your interest. That's not a hard site to build, either. I have a client that does that with singles...

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:25 AM): I agree with you on trust, Ben .. I am constantly doing things to become known as an expert in my field .. writing articles, participating in newsgroups and online discussions, that sort of thing

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:25 AM): Limit the job opps to 30 days, then they drop off (you warn the poster five days before expiration via e-mail).

Muhammad( (8/16/99 9:25 AM): Entered the room.

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:26 AM): That is a great idea, Rob! JoAnna, I don't charge candidates at all

BenFury ( (8/16/99 9:26 AM): And if you're ever wrong, admit it instantly. How many customers did MCI Worldcom lose this week because they weren't forthcoming about their frame relay problem?

Muhammad( (8/16/99 9:26 AM): Some recruiters are annoying I get about 10 emails/phone calls a day from recruiters with their newest hot consultant...and they are never consultants in fields I could actually use....

Kieran ( Again ) (8/16/99 9:27 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:27 AM): Terri, the IPN at has a cool jobs board that is totally free, but it rocks.

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:27 AM): Rob, I am posting job opps as you mention.. but haven't thought of having companies "pay me" for it!

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:28 AM): Also, the Association of Internet Professionals has one on a national scale.

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:28 AM): Muhammed, that is why JoAnna and I say they are "standard" .. they don't personalize obviously!

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:28 AM): Are you kidding? I was in a meeting last month where I "heard" Cisco has a standing order for 500 tech engineers....

Kieran ( Again ) (8/16/99 9:29 AM): Parting is such sweet sorrow, but it's home time again. Look forward to seeing you next week. (8/16/99 9:29 AM): Entered the room.

BenFury ( (8/16/99 9:29 AM): 10% of all IT positions are currently unfilled or underserviced. (8/16/99 9:30 AM): word to the wise -- crashed me -- twice

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:30 AM): Drive safely, Kieran.

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:30 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:31 AM): it may have, JoAnna, but you must admit that Don's concept is great and it grew to something like 600 jobs in its first month or two.

Muhammad( (8/16/99 9:31 AM): The funny thing is that they get annoyed with me! When I tell them no thank you.....

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:31 AM): me too JoAnna! just shut Netscape down here! lol

BenFury ( (8/16/99 9:31 AM): iPro gets fancy with some bleeding edge javascript. I've e'ed them about it. (8/16/99 9:31 AM): Ben, I'll be that's partially because they've got tech people doing creative work and vice versa. One of the biggest problems in the recruitment/job posting field right now.

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:31 AM): ARRRRGH. Now you know why I prefer staying behind at the heavily-scabbed edge...

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:31 AM): I am looking at my "niche" again.. I think that IT/Sales pros could be the wave here in Phx

BenFury ( (8/16/99 9:32 AM): Intangibles are important to IT's. Everybody throws money at them. (8/16/99 9:32 AM): I've posted jobs there, so I know it's a great thing.

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:32 AM): I can tell you from my own experience (client) that especially with recruiting, the more you niche the better you do. (8/16/99 9:33 AM): another reason to avoid all that fancy crap is because you spend all the time and money and energy in getting a visitor, and then you can't open the door

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:33 AM): Muhammed, I am seeing so many huge staffing firms online now .. and the problem I see with them is that they are trying to make the "online" portion work just like their "traditional" portion.. to me, that is crazy!

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:34 AM): I have one client that does nothing but hospital management placements. Talk about a niche

Koit Jatsa (8/16/99 9:34 AM): Entered the room.

BenFury ( (8/16/99 9:34 AM): I still just aim for Level 3 browser support and ultra-fast load times.

Koit Jatsa (8/16/99 9:34 AM): Good Morning, everybody

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:34 AM): Muhammed, I try to learn as much about the company's needs as I can before I ever offer a candidate.. no need to waste your time with someone you have no need for (8/16/99 9:35 AM): Good morning, Koit.

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:35 AM): Very true, Rob! that is what I was aiming for with my sales "niche" .. and I am refining it as I learn :) (8/16/99 9:35 AM): Entered the room.

Koit Jatsa (8/16/99 9:36 AM): Thanks, trying to be in course

BenFury ( (8/16/99 9:36 AM): Companies put an amazing amount of info on their sites. You can get a real feel for their 'corporate philosophy' with just a little surfing.

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:36 AM): Yes, people who are hiring want to know that they're hiring someone FROM someone who is as discriminating and experienced as they are. That's niche city. (8/16/99 9:36 AM): Hi first time log in - just so happens my husband is looking for hospital management / IT combo Rob could your forward that firm to me (8/16/99 9:37 AM): Loria = right place at right time! Isn't that a great coincidence?

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:38 AM): Ben, their corporate philosophy is great .. but it doesn't give me a feel for what the "hiring manager" really wants in a candidate

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:38 AM): Lori, they are called DNA Medical and they're here in Encino, CA.800-434-8687 but I don't know if they're doing the IT thing.

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:39 AM): They might just be doing middle and upper management, but it can't hurt to call.

BenFury ( (8/16/99 9:39 AM): I found one site that had personal bios on every manager that included full info back to college on each! (8/16/99 9:39 AM): thank you

BenFury ( (8/16/99 9:39 AM): That's a lot better than just calling up cold.

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:39 AM): Muhammed, what would be your personal feeling if you got an e-mail from a recruiter who had seen your ad someplace and sent you a "highlight" of a candidate that seemed to fit your need? Would you respond to it?

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:40 AM): The way I see it, there are two aspects to recruiting: one is offline the other is online. Seems to me that you bring them to you online, then finish the sale offline.

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:40 AM): That might be helpful to know, Ben :)

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:40 AM): Online is where the data is, Offline is where the chemistry is. You probably need both, eh?

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:40 AM): Very true, Rob

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:41 AM): (Anyone else have any issue they want to discuss?) (8/16/99 9:42 AM): Did anyone take a look at those postcard designs yet? ( Give me your best shot.

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:42 AM): ALRIGHT!!! IT'S CRITIQUE TIME!

Koit Jatsa (8/16/99 9:42 AM): Yes, a really big problem. - To start some sort of personal guidance online

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:43 AM): But with Internet recruiting you don't always get to meet offline .. just telephone, fax and email :) (8/16/99 9:43 AM): BE KIND -- this is my first attempt at doing this for someone else!! (8/16/99 9:44 AM): (Why am I suddenly shaking?)

BenFury ( (8/16/99 9:44 AM): Terri, using NLP techniques you can gather a lot of info via phone!

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:44 AM): Terri, anything other than one person visiting a site is contact. and will result in a chemistry call (which you do anyway). (8/16/99 9:44 AM): plug in is the most original and gets some thinking going

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:46 AM): Ben, I am not sure what NLP is *grin* And yes, Rob, I do develop great chemistry with clients on the phone :)

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:46 AM): JoAnna, of everything up there, you're still best going with "Save the Date". It's the only one that communicates everything you need it to.

BenFury ( (8/16/99 9:46 AM): neuro-linguistic programming. The use of verbal and non-verbal matching and mirroring to gain and extend rapport.

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:47 AM): Koit, what's the issue you have?

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:47 AM): JoAnna, I like the way you have the card laid out .. I might want a more compelling "hook" for the front of the card - but that is MHO :) (8/16/99 9:47 AM): WHEW! Ben is over MY head today!!

Koit Jatsa (8/16/99 9:48 AM): It is nor the NLP, but, something similar and much more powerful. But,...

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:48 AM): ahh okay .. yes Ben.. I am familiar with that.. non-verbal on the phone being pauses, etc? (8/16/99 9:48 AM): An excellent book on NLP called "Sales on the Line" by Sharon Morgan - it is using NLP with phone contacts - highly recommend it

Koit Jatsa (8/16/99 9:49 AM): Sorry, of course the "neturolinguistix programming"

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:49 AM): great! thanks Loria!

Koit Jatsa (8/16/99 9:50 AM): Sorry again, too much in hurry, But seriously, I'm quite ready for start..

BenFury ( (8/16/99 9:50 AM): JoAnna, try some designs that aren't all center-justified. Check out Robin Williams' books, she's really great at strong design with vertical alignment and good use of white space.

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:51 AM): Can I get some reactions from the group? Try

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:52 AM): Immediate reactions?

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:53 AM): What does this communicate to you? (8/16/99 9:53 AM): I'm not sure if the camera lens is supposed to be the "O" -- is it lornix or loronix?

Koit Jatsa (8/16/99 9:53 AM): Yes, .. in an e-mail

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:53 AM): (SEVEN MINUTE WARNING)

BenFury ( (8/16/99 9:53 AM): Nice design. I'd sharpen up the orb and make it more glossy, less matte. People associate glossy/metallic with tech.

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:53 AM): What does it communicate, though?

Jacob (8/16/99 9:54 AM): I think it should be "while others watch over your warehouse, WE watch over.." not "ours watches over"

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:54 AM): You're on the wrong page, Jacob, as usual.....

Jacob (8/16/99 9:55 AM): Oops, I wasn't supposed to press "next". (8/16/99 9:55 AM): visually I liked the first one Rob, It took me a long time to figure out it was a camera in the second piece, maybe I'm a little thick on a Monday morn. he he

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:55 AM): Correct. Just stay on (8/16/99 9:55 AM): I pressed next and got a logo without the blue bar (8/16/99 9:55 AM): (I like the blue bar)

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:56 AM): No, that's cool. I just want to know what this thing says to you. What does it communicate?

BenFury ( (8/16/99 9:56 AM): Well, it appears to be lens or crystal ball. It's a little subtle for me to be sure what it's saying.

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:56 AM): What kind of a company is this?

Jacob (8/16/99 9:56 AM): So I guess I shouldn't say that you wrote "vaolue" instead of value.

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:56 AM): Correct Jacob....

BenFury ( (8/16/99 9:57 AM): Something to do with high tech optics?

Jacob (8/16/99 9:57 AM): Maybe if the tagline was "cameras with vision" it would get across what the company did. Because anyone in any industry could say technology with vision.

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:57 AM): Okay, Ben says high tech optics...anyone else? (8/16/99 9:58 AM): I'm no good at this... I think it's selling some kind of high-tech camera. (That is a photography camera lens, right?)

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:58 AM): Jacob, you are indeed amusing....anyone else?

Terri ( (8/16/99 9:58 AM): A technology company that has to do with vid-cams?

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:58 AM): That's fine, joAnna. That's the purpose of springing this on you.

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:58 AM): (TWO MINUTES)

Jacob (8/16/99 9:59 AM): Amusing?! I was being serious.

RobFrankel (8/16/99 9:59 AM): That's was so amusing!

Jacob (8/16/99 9:59 AM): Branding 101, logo and tagline should somehow reflect the company and what they do. technology with vision is something anyone can say. (8/16/99 10:00 AM): the pun is kind of esoteric, tho. It's something you'd have to read a couple of times to "get it". even smart people like us!

RobFrankel (8/16/99 10:00 AM): Okay, anyone else? I appreciate the reactions. Jacob, you slay me, man!

Terri ( (8/16/99 10:00 AM): so what ARE they selling, Rob?

RobFrankel (8/16/99 10:01 AM): The company is moving away from a surveillance software system, branching into video management and optical software. There are other issues in play, as well.

RobFrankel (8/16/99 10:02 AM): Brand transition is tricky, because you have to preserve what you've got as you move into something new...This is one phase we were discussing.

BenFury ( (8/16/99 10:03 AM): A slight modification to the background behind the lens could give some clue to where they're moving. (8/16/99 10:04 AM): what do you mean, Rob? (8/16/99 10:05 AM): oops, what do you mean, Ben?

Terri ( (8/16/99 10:05 AM): Is that camera lens in their current logo, Rob ?

RobFrankel (8/16/99 10:06 AM): .Yes, Terri. Abstract though it may be (for a reason).

BenFury ( (8/16/99 10:06 AM): For instance, if they were branching from lenses to entire cameras, you'd put a hint of the camera body back there. (8/16/99 10:07 AM): I'd like to see the bobbing FrankelHead inside the lens, just for fun. I half expect Rob's grinning mug to pop into it!!

RobFrankel (8/16/99 10:07 AM): I'm just looking at whether the notion of "optical" comes through

BenFury ( (8/16/99 10:08 AM): The lens almost looks like a tire. I'd add a few more distinguishing 'lenslike' features.

RobFrankel (8/16/99 10:08 AM): It's not a final Ben, just a concept...but thank you for the input. (8/16/99 10:09 AM): Well, I'm outta here for this week. Thanks to everyone for the kind criticism of the postcards. I'm going into a meeting with the company right after I log off with you fine people....

BenFury ( (8/16/99 10:09 AM): Sure, I know a great tech illustrator if you need help with it.

RobFrankel (8/16/99 10:09 AM): Thanks, too, everyone. See you next Monday!

Terri ( (8/16/99 10:10 AM): Rob, thanks for all the great ideas today about recruiting! See you all next week!

BenFury ( (8/16/99 10:10 AM): Good luck JoAnna!

Jacob (8/16/99 10:10 AM): I have to split as well. See y'all next week. Same FrankelTime, same FrankelPlace.

Terri ( (8/16/99 10:10 AM): And thanks to all of you for your input! Good luck, JoAnna!

BenFury ( (8/16/99 10:11 AM): Work piles up. Gotta go. Anything anyone needs... just E me.

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