Transcript of Frankel's Free Clinic August 23, 1999 (8/23/99 9:00 AM): I'm sending my husband off to work, hug kiss, now get out of here so I can chat with the FB's! :-)

Benjamin Fitts ( (8/23/99 9:01 AM): Entered the room.

Benjamin Fitts ( (8/23/99 9:01 AM): Good Morning (afternoon for us east coasters)

Jacob (8/23/99 9:01 AM): Entered the room.

Jacob (8/23/99 9:02 AM): Good morning!

Kieran (8/23/99 9:02 AM): Entered the room. (8/23/99 9:02 AM): how odd this must be for people in the east. it's 9am in L.A., and it already feels late!

Kieran (8/23/99 9:03 AM): Try 5p.m, in Ireland.

Terri ( (8/23/99 9:03 AM): Hi Ben, Jacob and Kieran! Must be even more strange in your part of the world, eh Kieran?]

Clayton ( (8/23/99 9:03 AM): Yea, and 11am in the central time zone (8/23/99 9:03 AM): Welcome, J & B! (8/23/99 9:04 AM): at least 5pm is winding down the day.... ah, to dream (8/23/99 9:04 AM): Is Rob going to be here today?

Jacob (8/23/99 9:04 AM): Looks like Rob is a little Tardy (8/23/99 9:04 AM): ha ha Jacob...

Benjamin Fitts ( (8/23/99 9:04 AM): Rob is probably still waiting on his coffee to brew

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:05 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:05 AM): Greeeeeetings!

Terri ( (8/23/99 9:05 AM): Good morning Rob!

Jacob (8/23/99 9:05 AM): Speak of the devil!

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:05 AM): Sorry I'm late...let's see, what can I blame it on? (8/23/99 9:05 AM): Ahoy, Rob, Captain of HMS FrankelBiz!

Clayton ( (8/23/99 9:05 AM): Good Morning Rob!

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:06 AM): Devil? As in devilishly handsome, I assume? (8/23/99 9:06 AM): we already blamed it on your coffee brewing, but if you have something more interesting, go for it...!

Jacob (8/23/99 9:06 AM): Uh, yeah, that's what I meant, sure.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:06 AM): How's everyone doing? Sorry for the late thing. Who's up first?

Benjamin Fitts ( (8/23/99 9:06 AM): Rob we expect this chat to last until 10:05 due to your tardiness! ;)

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:07 AM): Benjamin, I'll probably have to clap erasers after school, too.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:07 AM): JoAnna, I notice that you are signing on as Ontarget, not Vermillion. What's that about?

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:08 AM): Career shift? (8/23/99 9:08 AM): I'm starting week three of this postcard project...the Vermillion thing is taking care of itself. I'm working! (8/23/99 9:09 AM): I'm doing both HR and design... plus I'm booking a few L.A. bands in my "free time" for extra fun.

Patrick (talknbuy) (8/23/99 9:09 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:10 AM): Anyone have any particular issue this morning? Go for it...

Benjamin Fitts ( (8/23/99 9:10 AM): Rob did you talk to Nabeel for my on Friday? (8/23/99 9:10 AM): the Question: How can I convince my client that she's not aiming for a target market in her advertising?

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:10 AM): I sent a response to him, Ben...I expect to hear from him today or in the next few.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:11 AM): Jo Anna, that can be taken two ways-- is it your feeling she's not targeting enough?

Benjamin Fitts ( (8/23/99 9:11 AM): And I am certainly interested in selling the intellectual property as well as the domain, but probably not the server and software

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:12 AM): I will follow up with him. (8/23/99 9:12 AM): She's got a cold mailing list, but the designs she's asking me to use don't create enough interest (IMHO) to get anyone to open the envelope...

Patrick (talknbuy) (8/23/99 9:12 AM): Hello, everybody. Thanks Rob for the list, I got several leads thanks to it. (8/23/99 9:13 AM): She's putting all the info on the outside of the card (date time cost) which make some think that it's easier to throw away (8/23/99 9:13 AM): without even opening it.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:14 AM): You're welcome Patrick! JoAnna, it sounds like you've got a small client there. I often remind clients of Frankel's Do It Yourself corollary:: doing it yourself works -- for suicide.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:15 AM): What that means is that she needs to realize there's a reason she called you -- because she is not able to do it herself. (8/23/99 9:15 AM): are you saying me doing it myself, or her taking the card's design into her own hands? (8/23/99 9:15 AM): oops typed too soon

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:16 AM): This is an extremely important point in client service. Reminding clients gently that they called you for a reason. If they want to do it themselves, YOU have to back away from the project

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:17 AM): This is a very fine line. But as long as you "nicely" offer them two versions (yours and theirs) and guide them to choice, you're on safe ground. (8/23/99 9:17 AM): She's there to do the fundraising... which is a "whole 'nuther ball of wax".

Kristine (8/23/99 9:17 AM): Entered the room.

Glenda (8/23/99 9:17 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:18 AM): That way, the client can see she was offered two alternatives and it clearly absolves you from any blame for her poor judgement.

BenFury ( (8/23/99 9:18 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:18 AM): This is part of YOUR professionalism. If any of you have kids, you know it's the same thing: sometimes you have to let them fail in order for them to learn. (8/23/99 9:19 AM): I guess that's what I've been thinking, I just needed to hear it from someone else. THANKS! conscience cleared, heart beating again.

Patrick (talknbuy) (8/23/99 9:19 AM): Does anyone know of a place frequented by people doing e-commerce or designing e-commerce sites? I have a product (talknbuy chat rooms) that I am interested in having listed on such sites. It would be great if I could list there for free but would also consider advertising.

BenFury ( (8/23/99 9:19 AM): And keep your email and fax records handy in case they "forget" what you told them.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:19 AM): After you have been in the business long enough, those types drop away, incidentally. I'll bet this client chiseled you on your fee real hard, too.... (8/23/99 9:19 AM): no kids (!) but I get your point. I'm archiving ALL the correspondence from them.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:19 AM): Patrick, I actually forwarded your post to client of mine...

Kieran. (8/23/99 9:20 AM): Entered the room. (8/23/99 9:20 AM): no, it was a flat fee, offered up on the WebGrrls list, for any takers.

Kristine (8/23/99 9:20 AM): Thank you for the list, Rob - Trimak has received many leads from it!

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:21 AM): Ben, you're already getting set to go to court! But it doesn't have to be that way. Just keep offering proper alternative suggestions. You're welcome Kristine! Glad it's working for you! Great group. (8/23/99 9:21 AM): I'm grateful for the advice. I'll phone her up when we're done here! (8/23/99 9:22 AM): no, Rob, don't forget, I'm an HR person at heart...and we document EVERYTHING. Ben's advice is welcome

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:22 AM): Just to inspire you joAnna, I completed a first phase branding project with a client, where I presented all the options, including a request to present one more execution to her board.

BenFury ( (8/23/99 9:22 AM): Not for court, Rob. I just like to be able to gently remind them of what was whose idea.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:23 AM): She was more than happy to entertain that, and as a result, the Board got to see all five brands. The first four we worked on together were okay, but they sat up and applauded when I presented #5. We both looked like heroes and she was very grateful.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:24 AM): Believe me, Ben, I'm 100% in favor of archiving EVERYTHING, like you say -- e-mail, faxes. In fact, that's one reason I NEVER use ICQ for important dialogue. No way to archive it.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:25 AM): Well, at least no way to archive it gracefully other than block copying and pasting. (8/23/99 9:25 AM): so you're saying got to keep an ace in the hole?

BenFury ( (8/23/99 9:26 AM): One of my clients wants to serve up PDF certificates to their customers on the fly. (Enter the name and bingo, it gets emailed to them.) Anyone know of an inexpensive server side solution?

Terri ( (8/23/99 9:26 AM): Rob, the new ICQ allows you to save a chat session by name when you get ready to leave the chat

Patrick (talknbuy) (8/23/99 9:26 AM): talknbuy has archiving actually :) ICQ does have archiving too but it's not in a very flexible format

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:26 AM): Yes, but not the ace you think. The ace is to show them that you are NOT the prima donna they think all creative people are. Show them you're there to make them heroes. THAT'S the ace, because so many creative types are indeed prima donna jerks.

BenFury ( (8/23/99 9:27 AM): The server is Sun/Unix/Linux BTW

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:27 AM): Really? Do they have it for the Mac? (8/23/99 9:27 AM): what kind of certificates, Ben? you did a good job, or insurance certs?

Terri ( (8/23/99 9:28 AM): I think they do, Rob - have to check on it though

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:28 AM): Ben, don't they have to generate the document first and then distill it to PDF?

BenFury ( (8/23/99 9:28 AM): I don't know if there is a Mac version. The only commercial solution I've found is $3000 for Unix URK! (8/23/99 9:28 AM): my icq is 1.7.2 on a Mac, and I haven't seen it.

BenFury ( (8/23/99 9:28 AM): Your basic attaboy/girl certs Rob.

Jacob (8/23/99 9:29 AM): Great chat as always but I have to run to a meeting. See y'all next week. Rob- hope everything will work out.

Terri ( (8/23/99 9:29 AM): JoAnna, have you used your ICQ for actual chat mode? That is the only time you get the option to save the session.. play it back.. etc

BenFury ( (8/23/99 9:29 AM): I've got the entire certificate designed in Photoshop. I'm ready to chop it up and save it out as any format they need.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:29 AM): (8/23/99 9:30 AM): Terri-yeah all the time. open one with me now...

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:30 AM): Don't you have to generate the doc first and then distill it through PDF?

BenFury ( (8/23/99 9:30 AM): All the server needs to do is drop in the name in the middle. Know of anything that will work on Linux?

BenFury ( (8/23/99 9:31 AM): Adobe Distiller won't do. They want to serve this up on-the-fly 24/7/365

Terri ( (8/23/99 9:31 AM): gotta postpone on that for a bit JoAnna.. have one going with a candidate *g*

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:31 AM): Ben, why go PDF? (8/23/99 9:31 AM): Ben has crossed a computer geek threshold that I have not yet attained.

BenFury ( (8/23/99 9:32 AM): So it will print out "suitable for framing"

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:32 AM): I don't know that PDF would go there. You might be better off merging something into a Microsoft Access or even word document.... (8/23/99 9:33 AM): those others are font-dependent -- I know that much -- whereas pdf is independent.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:33 AM): What a bout the Bolue Mountain scenario? Click here to get your certificate...

BenFury ( (8/23/99 9:33 AM): Nope, no Adobe apps allowed, we're talking Linux here

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:33 AM): Oops, Blue Mountain.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:34 AM): Glenda, what brings you here today?

BenFury ( (8/23/99 9:34 AM): Have the URL for Blue Mountain handy?

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:34 AM): Isn't it just Blue

BenFury ( (8/23/99 9:34 AM): I'll check, thanks.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:35 AM): They basically just throw everything together on to a web page and you print it out from there. (8/23/99 9:35 AM): I think that's it.

Terri ( (8/23/99 9:35 AM): yes .. takes you there

Glenda (8/23/99 9:35 AM): Can someone help me understand the difference between sponsors and plain ol' advertisers?

Terri ( (8/23/99 9:36 AM): the money they pay and the amount of space they get? *grin* (8/23/99 9:36 AM): the name would still be in the boring serif/sansserif font you use in your browser, wouldn't it?

Patrick (talknbuy) (8/23/99 9:36 AM): I would guess an audience assumes your 'sponsor' is your buddy, whereas they assume you just have 'advertisement' agreements to take in money. So be more careful about 'sponsors'.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:37 AM): Not necessarily, JoAnna, if they're specifying fonts. But, yes, it's not the optimal solution, if that's what you mean. I don't know that there is a PDF solution here.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:38 AM): Sure Glenda: advertisers are basically hit and run types. They pay for space -- rent it, actually -- to run their message.

Glenda (8/23/99 9:38 AM): Well I'm trying to put together a media kit with the advertising info and am a bit confused about sponsorships, advertisers pay CPM and sponsor pay a flat rate or provide site content?

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:38 AM): Think of a sponsor as a tenant who signs a one year lease. They take a long term interest in your site and help you build together for mutual benefit.

Glenda (8/23/99 9:39 AM): So would a sponsor be expected to pay less or more than advertisers and what exactly would be their role if any?

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:40 AM): I prefer sponsorships because they're far more stable and lead to business building relationships. I'd rather work with a good sponsor on a monthly fee basis than some ad that wants click thru's

Terri ( (8/23/99 9:40 AM): Glenda, I am helping a friend gear up for that too.. would be interested in knowing more about it myself.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:41 AM): Let's say you own a basketball site. Your sponsor is a local basketball team. Instead of selling them a banner for $2 cpm, you offer sponsorship based on programs you build.

Terri ( (8/23/99 9:41 AM): Rob, how would you determine what that monthly fee should be for a sponsor?

Glenda (8/23/99 9:41 AM): Well I'm about to enter negotiations with the local thoroughbred racing facility for sponsorship and want to know what I'm talking about when I do

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:42 AM): You propose to the basketball team that for $5000 per month, they can sponsor all or part of the site you build out for them.

Dave (8/23/99 9:42 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:43 AM): The fee you charge is based on the basketball team's return on investment. So your program has to show them that for every$500 they spend ,they get 8,000 back.

Glenda (8/23/99 9:43 AM): Is that to say exclusive sponsorship for, let's say a category of the site is a city guide (8/23/99 9:43 AM): My pager's going off, so I've got to go... See you next weed, and thanks for all the GREAT advice!

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:43 AM): For this to work you have to show them you know their business and how your program can deliver it. This is much more than simply slapping down a banner. (8/23/99 9:43 AM): ha ha ha see you next WEEK! that was not a Freudian slip!

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:44 AM): Okay, Glenda, let's use the City Guide example. If you have one restaurant sponsoring the dining guide, you create a program that furthers the interests of that restaurant.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:46 AM): That may mean you give your sponsor prominent display on more pages, but also feature downloadable coupons for their restaurant only. Or that you affiliate them with other sponsors outside their realm, like a fine men's clothier.

Terri ( (8/23/99 9:46 AM): can you give an example of a program that would do that, Rob?

Dave (8/23/99 9:47 AM): If your site has - say 1,000,000 impressions how would that number relate to a sponsorship deal? Also, if you are growing at 20% a month how would you factor that in?

Terri ( (8/23/99 9:47 AM): oops typed too soon :)

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:47 AM): I once proposed a retail sponsorship here in L.A. where local businesses who sponsored were given first crack at "customer inquiries". You create a "Can't find it?" feature that serves the inquiries to the sponsors. They love that.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:48 AM): Dave, creating and managing sponsorships are not eyeball dependent. They depend on quality traffic, which is why you base them on ROI.

Dave (8/23/99 9:49 AM): Rob, I assume that impressions factor into the equation. But how?

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:49 AM): Sponsors are also really into affiliating with other sponsors, to create a branded package they deliver through your site. Think of a wedding package, Glenda. One guy does the flowers, one does the hall, the food, the music, etc...all branded as a team u

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:50 AM): as a team under your site.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:51 AM): Dave, millions of eyeballs suggest one thing: millions of eyeballs. There's no guarantee of clickthrough or sales in the end. When you create a sponsorship program, there's a real reason driving business.

Dave (8/23/99 9:51 AM): I have a shoe MFG advertising on my site on CPM. How do I change that to a sponsorship?

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:51 AM): (TEN MINUTE WARNING)

Glenda (8/23/99 9:51 AM): So it would probably be best to sponsor by category, attractions, hotels, restaurants, realtors, meeting planners, etc.?

BenFury ( (8/23/99 9:52 AM): Rob, how do you tie together disparate sponsors? Right now I've got a client with Yahoo, Intel, Cisco and Oldsmobile sponsoring.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:52 AM): You have to approach them with a program you have designed for them Dave. Somehow linking their shoes to an attribute that motivates your visitors. Why are they currently advertising with you?

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:53 AM): Sponsorships work because sponsors realize YOU have built a plan that saves THEM time and makes THEM money. That's the key.

Dave (8/23/99 9:53 AM): My demographics of 80% women and 80% under 25 is why.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:53 AM): Which means you have to be THEIR marketing department and structure the deals from THEIR points of view/interest.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:54 AM): What kinds of shoes, Dave?

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:54 AM): The really kinky, high heel stuff?

Dave (8/23/99 9:54 AM): All kinds , I as far as I can tell

Dave (8/23/99 9:55 AM): I saw their ad in "Teen" mag.

Dave (8/23/99 9:57 AM): When I determined my demographic I ask myself what do they read and I went to that mag. and read the ads.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:57 AM): I could see a real fun promo with a fantasy promotion. With fishnets, perfumes, lingerie, the whole fantasy thing. All revolving around a fantasy theme, for example.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:57 AM): Or if they're teens, maybe it's a college theme that packages back to school for a month.

BenFury ( (8/23/99 9:57 AM): If they have the ultra high heels or platforms you have a tie-in with the chiropractors and orthopedic surgeons.

Dave (8/23/99 9:58 AM): Ha Ha

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:58 AM): See? Ben's thinking!!!! Funny.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 9:58 AM): (TWO MINUTES) But can you se that sponsorships pay a lot more, a lot better, but require you to do more work, at least up front.

BenFury ( (8/23/99 9:59 AM): Gotta go, fax coming in on the data line. Glad you got a chuckle. See you next week!

Glenda (8/23/99 9:59 AM): So with sponsorships you do ongoing promotions specifically designed for them as banner ads and possibly promopages hosted our your site?

Dave (8/23/99 9:59 AM): Their early stats are a CTR of 0.2% real bad.

Glenda (8/23/99 10:00 AM): So is $5000 a month average going rate Rob for sponsorships?

RobFrankel (8/23/99 10:00 AM): Yes, Glenda. And the richer your promotions, the more they salivate for them. Show them how you will make them money.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 10:01 AM): There is no average rate. It all depends on the program. But I personally begin with "what's this worth in terms of my time" and then go from there.

Dave (8/23/99 10:01 AM): I wish I hadn't got that call. This has been very interesting. Thanks Rob.

RobFrankel (8/23/99 10:02 AM): Okay, you guys. Sorry I was a bit late today. But I've gotta run. Feel free to stick around and I'll se you online!

Terri ( (8/23/99 10:02 AM): Rob, this was VERY timely!! Thanks for all the advice everyone! Gotta get to work now too - see you next week!

Glenda (8/23/99 10:02 AM): Ok, well thanks for your help wouldn't happen to know a helpful website to this would you?

Patrick (talknbuy) (8/23/99 10:07 AM): Who wants to continue to schmooze even though it's after 10? :) I'm interested in talking to people who need sponsors, people who want to talk live with their online e-customers, people who are web designers whose clients might want to talk online with web customers, much more...

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