Transcript of Frankel's Free Clinic September 30, 2002

Pat ( (9/30/2002 9:01 AM): Hello all.

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:01 AM): Hello Pat.

Peter Cooper ( (9/30/2002 9:01 AM): Every day I get a message saying I can help transfer $10m out of Africa. If I took them all up, I'd be a billionaire by now!

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:01 AM): Is the economy as bad everywhere else as it is in NC?

Pat ( (9/30/2002 9:02 AM): Hi Lorilyn

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:02 AM): Entered the room.

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:02 AM): Peter, I get three or four. I could be quadribillionaire.

Peter Clough ( (9/30/2002 9:02 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:02 AM): Greetings all...sorry I'm late.

Tamra ( (9/30/2002 9:02 AM): Actually we just got two new clients, so I'm feeling more upbeat about the economy.

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:03 AM): Tamra, congrats!

Tammie ( (9/30/2002 9:03 AM): Entered the room.

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:03 AM): Rob, it's exactly on the hour on my clock.

Pat ( (9/30/2002 9:03 AM): Lorilyn: CNBC ran a poll this morning asking if people thought the US is in a recession. 77% of the respondents said "yes."

Pat ( (9/30/2002 9:03 AM): I received a new client on Friday afternoon.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:04 AM): Tamra, I'm with you. As I wrote in FrankelTips today, I've gotten more comfortable with the selling angle. As a result, my revenue rocketed this last quarter.

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:04 AM): Pat, that's interesting. My Northern relatives don't seem to understand how bad it is in Raleigh. They still have jobs.

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:04 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:04 AM): However, my first two quarters were very bad.

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:04 AM): I'm launching a new service in two months, so I hope things get better for everyone. This is my last shot.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:05 AM): Pat, I was on the road in Silicon Valley last week. They have a confirmed DEPRESSION up there.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:05 AM): Lorilyn, what do you mean "last shot?"

Tamra ( (9/30/2002 9:05 AM): Oregon (where we are) has the *worst* unemployment in the US. One new client is local (but funded in Japan) and the other in New Jersey.

Holly ( (9/30/2002 9:05 AM): Entered the room.

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:05 AM): Feels like the Depression here. People losing houses. Absolutely NO jobs.

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:05 AM): You can tell that N. California is having problems. Just see how little traffic there is.

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:05 AM): My next door neighbor commutes 5 hours to Tennessee and returns home on weekends. (9/30/2002 9:06 AM): Then we probably are in a recession...oh the power of suggestion!

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:06 AM): On the other hand, my biz is booming.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:06 AM): Well, now you all can see why you MUST use the web for all its worth. I pull almost all by business from outside driving distance....

weber (9/30/2002 9:06 AM): Entered the room.

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:06 AM): Rob, I have to make this work. Okay, I can do the other stuff, too, so I guess it's not my last shot, but it feels like it.

Peter Cooper ( (9/30/2002 9:07 AM): Remember that even in a recession, actual GNP rarely falls. The per capita wealth is roughly the same as it was two years ago. All a recession really is is the wealthy guys (companies etc) holding onto their money a lot tighter. You just need to become more essential to them and you will get your piece of the pie as usual.

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:07 AM): It's just more important than ever before that it all works.

Peter Clough ( (9/30/2002 9:07 AM): what categories are you seeing the new biz come from?

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:07 AM): Lorilyn, I have a feeling that going through this time will make us stronger if it doesn't kill us, first. I know that for me, I had to go through it to make some realizations that were holding me back. It forced me to re-think.

Rob B ( (9/30/2002 9:08 AM): Entered the room.

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:08 AM): Many large and small companies are realizing that just having a web site is not enough.

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:08 AM): BTW, somebody here recommended Rentacoder. It's GREAT! I'm working with the top coder who lives in Greece but grew up in my hometown.

Holly ( (9/30/2002 9:08 AM): Tamra, I'm in Oregon too.

Peter Cooper ( (9/30/2002 9:08 AM): Rob: Did you ever publish those realizations and changes anywhere? (FrankelTips?)

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:08 AM): Rob, yes, I hate the book Who Moved My Cheese, but I was recommending it to my husband this morning. :) We have to re-think.

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:09 AM): The categories are all over, health, office furniture, music...

Tamra ( (9/30/2002 9:09 AM): We're suddenly getting a lot more folks coming to our site from Yahoo, all wanting web design. Haven't gotten any programming clients in a while. Lots of queries about web site redesigns to make them more search-engine friendly.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:09 AM): I mentioned them in FrankelTips, Peter. I don't recall how specifically, although the issue two weeks ago was pretty dedicated to it.

Tamra ( (9/30/2002 9:09 AM): Hey Holly! Nice to have a fellow Oregonian here.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:10 AM): My last client came from the cold e-mail campaign I've developed.

Holly ( (9/30/2002 9:10 AM): Tamra, does your company host your clients as well, or just do the designs..... It's raining here today!!

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:10 AM): I've started sending out postcards.

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:10 AM): "Cold email campaign?" Hmmm... that sounds like you know what. Tell us more.

Guy R Cook - (9/30/2002 9:10 AM): Entered the room.

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:11 AM): But, most of my clients are referred to me or find me in a directory.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:11 AM): Lorilyn, it isn't you-know-what. It's a serious outreach. One mailing. very personal. With the right message.

Tamra ( (9/30/2002 9:11 AM): (Holly, we outsource hosting, but most clients have hosting when the come to us. Feel free to send your info to me though -- )

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:12 AM): And I never send the same person more than one time. Actually, I don't need to. By the time I'm ready to, there's either another person I can contact or that person has left the company!

Angie Dixon ( (9/30/2002 9:12 AM): Entered the room.

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:12 AM): Rob, why do you refer to it as "cold" ? Just wondering.

Shirnette ( (9/30/2002 9:13 AM): Entered the room.

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:13 AM): Make sure that your site is visible to the search engines.

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:13 AM): As well as all possible/relevant directories.

Tamra ( (9/30/2002 9:13 AM): Rob, do you still contact the company if your contact person has left?

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:13 AM): Lorilyn, I call it "cold" because I'm sending a note to people who have not contacted me first. I'm not spamming them. At least, nobody has accused me of it. Even the declines have been very polite. I've even had people compliment me on the letter.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:14 AM): Anyone have a specific issue they want to address this morning?

Holly ( (9/30/2002 9:14 AM): Thanks Tamra!

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:14 AM): Tamra, yes, I do. I find out who replaced them and go after them. usually, I start with the CEO and work down from there.

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:14 AM): Rob, that's encouraging. I've wanted to do something similar, but I've been afraid of being accused of you-know-whatting.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:14 AM): Shirnette, do you have something to throw out for me to help with?

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:15 AM): Lorilyn, it ALL depends on what you send, I kid you not.

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:15 AM): And watch your spelling ;)

Pat ( (9/30/2002 9:15 AM): Lorilyn, the e-mail has to be written in such a way that it doesn't sound like spam.

Angie Dixon ( (9/30/2002 9:16 AM): Hi, Rob. Good morning. I'm wondering the best way to promote my copywriting business. I'm thinking of buying some "fringe" words on, but does that really work?

Peter Clough ( (9/30/2002 9:16 AM): Rob in the opening sentence to you apologize or "pardon the interruption"

Holly ( (9/30/2002 9:16 AM): A good cold campaign is a winner..... the way it is written is crucial

weber (9/30/2002 9:16 AM): It should not even try and sell anything

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:16 AM): Right, Pat. You'd be amazed at how well it can do. For the record, my old letter drew a 2% response rate. My new letter gets a 7% response rate.

Jodie ( (9/30/2002 9:16 AM): Entered the room.

Shirnette ( (9/30/2002 9:16 AM): not at this time, just observing

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:17 AM): No, Peter. I don't apologize for anything. That's a sure way to communicate you're going to try to sell them something. Instant turn off.

Peter Clough ( (9/30/2002 9:17 AM): good!

Peter Clough ( (9/30/2002 9:17 AM): been having a discussion here lately and I insisted it was a turnoff

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:17 AM): Angie, advertise in the (print) PMA newsletter (Publishers Marketing Association)

Pat ( (9/30/2002 9:18 AM): Rob, my last 2 campaigns resulted in about a 15% response rate. Of those, 2% declined further communication.

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:18 AM): Rob, can you send me a copy?

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:18 AM): In "Swinging for the Fences" (last week's FrankelTips, I noted how big business sniffs fear and insecurity that way.

Holly ( (9/30/2002 9:18 AM): Never apologize, I agree with Rob

Tamra ( (9/30/2002 9:18 AM): Rob, do you have a sample of your letter in any of your ebooks? I'm always interested in seeing how other folks pitch.

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:18 AM): Angie, don't use Overture!

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:18 AM): Hey Brownie Points! Famous Miss Jodie!

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:18 AM): Pat, I'm totally okay with declines. That's part of the business. What I'm not okay with are angry spam accusations. That tells me that something's wrong -- with the letter, not them.

Jodie ( (9/30/2002 9:19 AM): :-D Hi Lorilyn!

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:19 AM): Google AdWords is a much better service.

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:19 AM): So what do you send them? Tips? ...if not selling them something?

Angie Dixon ( (9/30/2002 9:20 AM): Thanks, Anita, I'll put that on my list.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:20 AM): No, Tamra, the letter is not published anywhere.....when I discontinue it, I'll be happy to publish it. Right now, the last thing I need is for the same letter to pop up all over! It will start looking like Nigerian banking pleas.....

Pat ( (9/30/2002 9:20 AM): Rob - just to let you know, I'm still working on the suggestions you gave me in one of the FrankelTips issues. I'll get back to you once I've made a few changes.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:21 AM): Actually, Lorilyn, I'm very direct and very sincere about the issue that concerns them most: in my case, that goes to their being (or not being) "the only solution to their prospects' problems.

Peter Cooper ( (9/30/2002 9:22 AM): My customers are great at branding. They are all the only solution to my money problems ;-)

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:22 AM): Thanks. That helps me in thinking about my message.

weber (9/30/2002 9:22 AM): Rob, You mean the Nigerian guy who promised me 10,000,000 is not real! What is this world coming to?

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:22 AM): I don't sell, but I do offer to help -- if they need it. And the way that it's written really and truly does look as if it's a one-off letter, not mass mailed.

Peter Clough ( (9/30/2002 9:22 AM): Sincerity is the key - and once you learn to fake that you've got it made!

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:23 AM): Rob, do you use any personalized email program or do you have something customized?

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:23 AM): Peter, you are, as usual, quite right. BTW, although it's a long shot, the Shetland Islands Tourist Board contacted me about their branding. I'd love to do that, but I suspect I'm a long shot.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:24 AM): Lorilyn, I use a great mail merge program for the Mac called emerge, which is provided by They do NOT have a PC-based program, although there is a PC program that's cheap.

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:24 AM): Why a long shot? If you're an expert... you should expect worldwide work, no?

Peter Clough ( (9/30/2002 9:24 AM): little horse big fun - the Shetlands!

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:24 AM): What is the name of the PC cheap program?

weber (9/30/2002 9:25 AM): Why Rob, Americans are famous for sales, and marketing. Branding should be right up there.

Peter Cooper ( (9/30/2002 9:25 AM): Oh no, I'm going to get mailers from the Shetland Islands convincing me how the Shetland Islands are my only holiday solution!

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:25 AM): Peter, LOL.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:26 AM): As long as we're on the topic, here are the four topics I load into the DB before mailing:

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:26 AM): Peter, only if they buy. It could be worse: sheep with bobbing heads.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:26 AM): First Name, Last Name, Company Name, e-mail, Company background

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:27 AM): I expect to be along shot because they may be looking for local talent.

Peter Cooper ( (9/30/2002 9:27 AM): Have you actually been to Scotland? ;-) 'Talent'? :-D

Peter Clough ( (9/30/2002 9:27 AM): Don't be sheepish - Pony up for a suite - The Shetlands!

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:27 AM): In the Shetland Islands?

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:27 AM): In any case, I would love to do that.

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:27 AM): Angie, make sure your meta tags are working.

Pat ( (9/30/2002 9:28 AM): Rob - Wow. I get that statement a lot. "We're using a local company here."

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:28 AM): Clough, you are dismissed.......

Jodie ( (9/30/2002 9:28 AM): well - do they want Americans to visit? What better person to market to Americans than a fellow American

Teddy Towncrier (9/30/2002 9:28 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:28 AM): Yes, I've been to Scotland. Loved it. Loved the Irish Republic, too.

Peter Cooper ( (9/30/2002 9:29 AM): If there's a 100% branding/PR-focused company within 100 miles of the Shetland Islands I would be -very- surprised.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:29 AM): I agree with all your comments. But what we may have here is the typical "you have what I want but we're not used to buying that way" syndrome.

Peter Cooper ( (9/30/2002 9:29 AM): I am English. It's my patriotic duty to talk down the Scottish.

Angie Dixon ( (9/30/2002 9:29 AM): Thanks, Anita. I'm getting a new web site in a week or so and will have meta tags working then.

Jodie ( (9/30/2002 9:30 AM): That wouldn't be very global of them if they took that attitude...

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:30 AM): Just know that I am trying to land that one. But after a rash of communications, there's been a quiet period. I still don't know what that means.

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:30 AM): Angie, to check them go over to There should be a search box that lets you check your tags.

Jodie ( (9/30/2002 9:30 AM): "We want you to come spend your money with us, but we don't want to spend our money with you"

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:31 AM): (Anyone have any personal issues to bring up?) I don't want to hog this.

Pat ( (9/30/2002 9:31 AM): Rob - it probably means that they're evaluating another solution.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:31 AM): Jodie: somewhat imperialistic, don't you think?

Stuart Bruce ( (9/30/2002 9:31 AM): Entered the room.

Peter Cooper ( (9/30/2002 9:31 AM): It took quite some years before McDonald's was 'accepted' in the UK. I think McFrankel won't need quite so long.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:31 AM): I agree, Pat. For the moment, it's value is purely perceptional: at least I know that my brand is on the radar screen for potential clients like them

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:32 AM): Rob, I'm trying to come up with a logo.

Jodie ( (9/30/2002 9:32 AM): my plug: Use Lorilyn everyone! Rob: Yes - just being cocky on a Monday - up since 5am... ;-)

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:32 AM): Yes, Peter. I give every client a toy with each "Happy Brand" they order.

Peter Cooper ( (9/30/2002 9:32 AM): Anyway, off to eat dinner. Ciao!

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:32 AM): Anita, what is your logo for?

Pat ( (9/30/2002 9:33 AM): How may weeks has it been? So far, if I haven't heard from someone within 2 weeks, I send them an e-mail asking if they are still interested in doing business. Is this a good idea?

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:33 AM): Jodie, thank you. It was a joy to help make you famous. :)

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:33 AM): But Jodie, when you plug me, spell my name right. LOL.

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:33 AM): The logo will be for a bumper sticker, and any ad banners, etc.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:33 AM): Pat, it's been off and on for about a month or so. Of course, in my business, average sales cycle is 90 days more or less.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:33 AM): Anita, for

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:34 AM): I've tried text logos as in mySEARCHguru.

Rob B ( (9/30/2002 9:34 AM): Anita, is it a logo that will identify your company?

Jodie ( (9/30/2002 9:34 AM): Ah, shoot - sorry Lorilyn... up since 5am - your fault ;-)

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:34 AM): Yes.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:34 AM): BTW, did I mention that I snapped up ? Just for the hell of it......

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:34 AM): Jodie, what do you want? Sleep or fame? You can't have both.

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:35 AM): Yes, you did. Does it point to your site now?

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:35 AM): The logo will help keep the brand in people's minds. You can't really identify the company.

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:35 AM): Yes it does point to your site.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:35 AM): Anita, I think you'd want a visual representation of your brand. The binoculars don't do it for me....they just say "look". They don't say "I can get you found"

Pat ( (9/30/2002 9:35 AM): Rob - Yep. I think you mentioned it last week. Congratulations.

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:36 AM): There have been several suggestions for a magnifying glass, but that has been done to death.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:36 AM): And please, nobody suggest a little cartoon of Ghandi at a keyboard.....

Jonathan Cohen (writer) (9/30/2002 9:36 AM): Entered the room.

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:36 AM): I tried a person in a turban, but that doesn't really work, either.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:37 AM): Anita, focus on the notion of "getting found" or discovery. That's what people seek you out for.

weber (9/30/2002 9:37 AM): How about a bullseye with an arrow

Rob B ( (9/30/2002 9:37 AM): Magnifying glasses tend to be very clip arty...and the globe is overdone as about some sort of map concept?

Jodie ( (9/30/2002 9:37 AM): Naw - it should be you, Rob, sitting cross-legged a the top of a mountain bobbing your head...

Peter Clough ( (9/30/2002 9:37 AM): Jodie LOL

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:37 AM): Look at logo at Sort of big, but simple.

Tamra ( (9/30/2002 9:37 AM): weber -- bullseyes are done to death as well. All the direct marketing and email marketing sites have them by the bushels in their logos.

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:38 AM): Perhaps a light bulb?

Jonathan Cohen (writer) (9/30/2002 9:38 AM): haystack + needle?

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:38 AM): Anita, it may require a slightly more abstract design. Take a look at

weber (9/30/2002 9:38 AM): Speaking of bushels, how about someone picking a piece of fruit from a tree

Pat ( (9/30/2002 9:38 AM): "REMINDER: Frankel's FREE Clinic Monday Morning" - I've been getting these 40 minutes after the session starts. In fact, I just received the e-mail.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:39 AM): This was done years ago for a company whose app speeded up connections on gateways.

Rob B ( (9/30/2002 9:39 AM): Anita, are you working with a design firm?

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:39 AM): Pat, that message was sent out four hours ago. They usually get sent out at 5:30 AM Pacific time

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:40 AM): My point is that sometimes (actually often) you can work the benefit into the actual name of the company.

Lorilyn Bailey ( (9/30/2002 9:40 AM): Bye everyone, going to go to lunch. Busy day. Thanks, Rob. See y'all next week.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:40 AM): Okay, Pat, we'll send them out earlier from now on

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:40 AM): No, Rob B., I am trying to do this for little or no $.

Pat ( (9/30/2002 9:40 AM): Rob - Wow. Mail must be slow then. It took 4 hours to get here. Perhaps it took had a layover in Dallas (I'm in NY)

Rob B ( (9/30/2002 9:40 AM): Anita, you might also want to check out

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:41 AM): One suggestion was to put the magnifying glass over the word "Search" and make it bigger.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:41 AM): Yeah, Pat. I've had occasions where Earthlink has spooled my mail for 24 hours

Pat ( (9/30/2002 9:41 AM): Rob - It's ok. The timing is fine. I scheduled into my contact software to remind me to come here every Monday.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:42 AM): Anita, everyone does that. Besides, it's not about looking for stuff, it's about getting your clients found.

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:42 AM): An archaeological trowel scraping away dirt from the name?

weber (9/30/2002 9:43 AM): How about two hands parting weeds, and exposing a small object?

Tamra ( (9/30/2002 9:43 AM): charges $12,000 to $40,000 to name a company. I'm in the wrong business!

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:44 AM): Especially since you can get help at for free, or

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:44 AM): Yeah, and the names aren't all that great.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:45 AM): Remember, that's what they say they charge. Think they're really getting that? I don't think so....

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:46 AM): I name companies, but they get a brand strategy with it. That's worth paying for. most of these companies just come up with a name and no brand.

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:46 AM): With the trowel idea, it shows both of my interests.

Tamra ( (9/30/2002 9:46 AM): I love Nameboy. We used it when figuring out our new name (to be revealed here as soon as I get the website done).

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:46 AM): Or perhaps the word "Eureka!"

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:46 AM): That's half the problem, Anita. The people buying your service aren't interested in anything but their own problems, not your interests.

weber (9/30/2002 9:47 AM): I do our names, I try and keep them simple and to the point, except for JAJA Group, Inc.

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:47 AM): But, not all people know the term.

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:47 AM): Perhaps a person hunting a meta tag?

Jodie ( (9/30/2002 9:48 AM): Some people do, Anita - I was having visions of a bathtub theme... ;-)

Angie Dixon ( (9/30/2002 9:48 AM): Addressing their problem, maybe you could have something like a stack of web pages...don't know how you'd do that, but it's an interesting idea.

weber (9/30/2002 9:48 AM): Anita, it's not all about you (Anita), it's all about them (your prospect).

Jodie ( (9/30/2002 9:48 AM): Just, kidding, BTW....

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:49 AM): Your name suggests the problem. Let the logo display the solution.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:49 AM): Maybe it addresses the idea that a guru has the "answers".

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:49 AM): (TEN MINUTE WARNING)

Tamra ( (9/30/2002 9:50 AM): I keep thinking about a lost pet poster -- like you see on every light post. Only in this case it's Found, not lost, and a website, not a pet.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:50 AM): Tamra, on milk cartons? "Have you seen this web site?"

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:50 AM): Cool, Tamra!

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:52 AM): But how to keep it simple?

Tamra ( (9/30/2002 9:52 AM): The milk carton...that's a great idea. Anita could do a whole series of images on her site that have to do with "lost" web sites. And she's the person behind the Lost & Found sign at the desk!

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:52 AM): Um, not in the best of taste. I was kind of kidding there.....

Rob B ( (9/30/2002 9:52 AM): I mentioned identityworks because they are a good resource for info...see their review section for example

Tamra ( (9/30/2002 9:53 AM): keep the logo simple, use the other images to convey those extra thousand words...

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:53 AM): I still think the idea of discovery is where you're at.

Peter Clough ( (9/30/2002 9:53 AM): really" missing and exploited websites" I don't know

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:53 AM): Yes, but how do you "show" discovery?

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:53 AM): Anita, one of the best means of getting inspired is by visiting various design and marketing and advertising sites and going through their portfolios.

weber (9/30/2002 9:53 AM): the battered websites home

Peter Clough ( (9/30/2002 9:54 AM): planting a flag on the new world

Jodie ( (9/30/2002 9:54 AM): Labyrinth

Tamra ( (9/30/2002 9:55 AM): for inspiration.

Angie Dixon ( (9/30/2002 9:55 AM): a maze might work...the flag is going to raise more questions than it answers...

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:55 AM): Planting a meta tag on a website?

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:55 AM): Well, one visual cliche is that when something is unearthed it usually glows all shiny.....

Rob B ( (9/30/2002 9:55 AM): Anita, in your case i think you need to be more abstract than literal. you could start with a literal idea and then expand on it from there, maps, compasses...discovery...i think of sailing, dreaming, treasure hunts

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:55 AM): Think "Raiders of the Lost Ark"

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:56 AM): Yeah, I think that's it. Really explore the idea that people dig and hunt for your clients' sites.

Peter Clough ( (9/30/2002 9:56 AM): mouse at computer with map thru maze on screen

Rob B ( (9/30/2002 9:56 AM): Tamra, great site!

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:57 AM): An open treasure chest. Why does that call the Monopoly guy to mind? Community Chest?

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:57 AM): A glowing meta tags?

Peter Clough ( (9/30/2002 9:57 AM): I like the treasure chest

Jodie ( (9/30/2002 9:57 AM): a hole in the ground, with the top of a shovel and some dirt flying - with an abandoned treasure map thrown beside it....

Tamra ( (9/30/2002 9:57 AM): Treasure chest with search engine logos or search boxes popping out of it?

Angie Dixon ( (9/30/2002 9:57 AM): a compass

weber (9/30/2002 9:58 AM): How about a dog digging up a bone?

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:58 AM): See, I went to and didn't like anything there....just a bunch of design but no real communication

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:58 AM): Jodie, your idea, but meta tags flying out.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:58 AM): (TWO MINUTES)

Rob B ( (9/30/2002 9:59 AM): interesting point, rob

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 9:59 AM): ...but that's just me. Everyone to his or her own tastes.

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:59 AM): Are there logo books?

Jodie ( (9/30/2002 9:59 AM): I like the More Than logo there

Rob B ( (9/30/2002 9:59 AM): but aren't we seeing it out of context or are you saying the 'logos' should be doing more work?

Anita ( (9/30/2002 9:59 AM): Thanks, everyone. I'll let you know how it turns out.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 10:00 AM): Yes, Anita, go to the library and look for CA (Communication Arts) annuals and magazines. Filled with stuff

Tamra ( (9/30/2002 10:00 AM): Tons of logo books. Search for David E Carter at Amazon. The Big Book, The New Logo, Logos Go Digital...lots and lots of books.

RobFrankel ( (9/30/2002 10:00 AM): Okay, everyone....lots of work to do. I've got to saddle up my Shetland pony....see you all online!

Rob B ( (9/30/2002 10:00 AM): Anita, if you'd like feedback on what you come up with, feel free to e-mail me

Pat ( (9/30/2002 10:00 AM): Have a good week everyone.

Rob B ( (9/30/2002 10:00 AM): have a great week everyone

weber (9/30/2002 10:01 AM): Take care everyone.

Tamra ( (9/30/2002 10:01 AM): Bye everyone!

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