Transcript of Frankel's Free Clinic October 7, 2002

Jonathan (writer/editor - jacohen@telus.net) (10/7/2002 8:59 AM): hey Rob

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 8:59 AM): I hope I'm on time today...I've got five different clocks, including a microwave, and they're ALL different....

Hi Rob I have a question. (10/7/2002 8:59 AM): Entered the room.

Rob B (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (10/7/2002 8:59 AM): Entered the room.

John Charlesworth (BellaCoola.com Professional Web Tracking) (10/7/2002 9:00 AM): Entered the room.

Rob B (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (10/7/2002 9:00 AM): Good morning/afternoon to all

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:01 AM): So who's up first?

Carla Boulton - carla@naughtymutt.com (10/7/2002 9:02 AM): Entered the room.

Carla Boulton - carla@naughtymutt.com (10/7/2002 9:02 AM): Hi Rob, can you answer a question please?

Tamra (tamra@hcstudios.com) (10/7/2002 9:03 AM): Hi Jonathan!

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:03 AM): Fire away Carla!

Cheryl Lynn Spencer (info@quickorganizeme.com) (10/7/2002 9:03 AM): Entered the room.

Carla Boulton - carla@naughtymutt.com (10/7/2002 9:03 AM): I seem to have found a way to egg on a sticky client. Is it OK to say that we have allotted time for the project in the next week and hope to have it finished by X date? It seems to have worked but I don‚t want to scare away the client by being pushy.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:03 AM): Apparently, a chocolate Danish does nothing to enhance one's typing ability.....

Cheryl Lynn Spencer (info@quickorganizeme.com) (10/7/2002 9:03 AM): Morning everyone!

weber jajagroup.com (10/7/2002 9:04 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:04 AM): Depends on what you're trying to egg him to do. Pay? Respond?

Carla Boulton - carla@naughtymutt.com (10/7/2002 9:05 AM): he has signed contracts and started the site development but was dithering so I needed him to hurry up as we don't want cash flow probs

Rob B (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (10/7/2002 9:06 AM): did you ask for any portion when the contract was signed?

Carla Boulton - carla@naughtymutt.com (10/7/2002 9:06 AM): we don't do that because our industry has had a bad time with people disappearing with the first 50% so we have a tight contract and they client pays to release the site

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:06 AM): Carla, this is a good issue. Here's what I do and what you should be doing: You should have a timetable and payment schedule in your service agreement. There's NOTHING quite as effective as nudging a client, and then backing it up wit "As outlined in our service agreement". Not in a threatening way, just reference.

Carla Boulton - carla@naughtymutt.com (10/7/2002 9:07 AM): sorry - dithering about moving forward with the work - end of the day here no choccie Danish either

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:07 AM): Rob B is correct, though. I get at least 60% of the fee up front so that the client who doesn't follow up (or walks away) feels their pain and I don't go out of pocket.

Frederick (bspage.com) (10/7/2002 9:08 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:08 AM): For example, I have one client who paid 60% up front for a job that should have been 90 days. We're into our THIRD YEAR because she cant get it together.

Jonathan (writer/editor - jacohen@telus.net) (10/7/2002 9:08 AM): [hi Frederick]

Tamra (tamra@hcstudios.com) (10/7/2002 9:08 AM): I always get a deposit up front -- too many clients cancel projects one week after they "start" (and after I've put in time)

Carla Boulton - carla@naughtymutt.com (10/7/2002 9:08 AM): people have been badly burned by this, we find clients are put of in a big way by the 50% up front thing

tracybrant@gryphynmedia.com (10/7/2002 9:09 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:09 AM): Every 30 days, I send her a nudge note, but the fact is that I've already made my profit. Anything more is found money. And everything is set out in our service agreement, so I'm on sturdy ground

Carla Boulton - carla@naughtymutt.com (10/7/2002 9:09 AM): *badly burnt

Jim (www.mscmerchandise.com) (10/7/2002 9:09 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:09 AM): Carla, any client who doesn't want to pay up front simply isn't serious. Period. You need to pursue better grade business.

Frederick (bspage.com) (10/7/2002 9:10 AM): Cannot agree with that serious clients pay up front - If they don't know you why should they trust you when you have shown that you won't trust them?

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:11 AM): You owe it to yourself. And the people who value your business don't mind paying something up front.

weber jajagroup.com (10/7/2002 9:11 AM): Carla, ask your client to open up a standby letter of credit

Carla Boulton - carla@naughtymutt.com (10/7/2002 9:11 AM): OK maybe I'm just thinking from a local point of view, we do have big clients who offer to pay up-front and unless we are working on a specifically staged payment contract then we don't do it

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:12 AM): Because, Frederick, it's not about trust. It's about the level of business that you do. At a certain level (usually higher) the trust is implicit. That's where you should aim. Only the "low level" businesses suspect each other, possibly because they are either inexperienced or that they are capable of bad business themselves.

weber jajagroup.com (10/7/2002 9:12 AM): Rob, we have that problem some times, when a client does not want to pay a big deposit upfront we have them open a standby L/C. Then we can invoice them when the time is right and if they do not pay, their bank pays us.

tracybrant@gryphynmedia.com (10/7/2002 9:13 AM): I offer 30 days credit to designers who bring me repeat hosting business.

Tamra (tamra@hcstudios.com) (10/7/2002 9:13 AM): Have a guaranteed refund in your contract (i.e. if project is cancelled before X amount done) to reassure those who are afraid you'll take the money and run

Frederick (bspage.com) (10/7/2002 9:13 AM): Sorry, Rob - trust has everything to do with it. If you won't work without upfront payment, you are saying to them that you don't trust them

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:14 AM): Frederick, here's a perfect example: My last two clients had no problem paying 50% up front. One was a $20K job the other was a $50K job. Both also paid their balance within 30 days. That's how they do business. On the other hand, there's a guy that I'm trying to buy a new PowerBook from for $1600 and he simply doesn't trust me to send the money, even though he can see the money is deposited at Western Union....

Carla Boulton - carla@naughtymutt.com (10/7/2002 9:15 AM): Maybe there's a difference in mentality here in the UK, up-front payments seem to degrade trust all round, more so in the last six months. What I was really asking was when a client won't move on with the project is it OK to nudge them and you say yes Rob

Frederick (bspage.com) (10/7/2002 9:15 AM): Frankly, I won't hire anyone that wants upfront payment.

tracybrant@gryphynmedia.com (10/7/2002 9:15 AM): I feel that the "work" I do upfront on development is investing myself in talking to them, researching their needs, and preparing a proposal tailored to their needs.

weber jajagroup.com (10/7/2002 9:15 AM): Frederick, when you are in a service business like Rob, the value of the service is greatly reduced *after* it is completed. Because now the customer has the service, and will generally drag their feet. Why go chasing after money?

Carla Boulton - carla@naughtymutt.com (10/7/2002 9:15 AM): To those with less money a small amount means more

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:15 AM): Tamra: My kill fee states "50% of the balance left on the contract." There's no reason to let someone off the hook, especially when you figure that most of us do 80% of the work up front, not evenly throughout the phase of the project.

Angie@powerfulwords.net (10/7/2002 9:16 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:16 AM): Frederick, people pre-pay their FrankelCalls no problem.

tracybrant@gryphynmedia.com (10/7/2002 9:17 AM): Are you in the UK, Frederick?

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:17 AM): Carla, unless I missed something, you're not running a bank. You have no reason to finance a client's job. This is why I strongly advocate getting a credit card set up. That's what VISA and Mastercard are for

Frederick (bspage.com) (10/7/2002 9:17 AM): No, I'm in Houston Texas

Carla Boulton - carla@naughtymutt.com (10/7/2002 9:17 AM): Were you able to demand upfront payment before you had your reputation/had built your brand?

tracybrant@gryphynmedia.com (10/7/2002 9:17 AM): I wondered if Carla was onto something, with a cultural difference in business protocols.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:17 AM): Carla, one of the top mistakes that small business people make is not factoring in the hidden costs of doing business. This is a huge one.

Frederick (bspage.com) (10/7/2002 9:17 AM): No, I'm in Houston Texas Texans still do business on a handshake

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:18 AM): Yes, Carla, although there's no doubt that having a history helps.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:18 AM): However, you're onto something good: specifically, your brand has to motivate people to feel comfortable about paying up front

tracybrant@gryphynmedia.com (10/7/2002 9:19 AM): Oddly, the only time I have been burned by not taking a deposit... It was Texans... LOL

Pat (pht-commerce.net) (10/7/2002 9:19 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:20 AM): If you present yourself as professional, you get treated as such

Pat (pht-commerce.net) (10/7/2002 9:20 AM): Hello all. Running a little late today.

Carla Boulton - carla@naughtymutt.com (10/7/2002 9:20 AM): Yes, we are thinking of having a more serious brand name for a different less design led client

Jodie@ScoreBrowniePoints.com (10/7/2002 9:20 AM): Entered the room.

Pat (pht-commerce.net) (10/7/2002 9:20 AM): Hi Rob, I'd like to throw myself into the queue if there's time.

Frederick (bspage.com) (10/7/2002 9:20 AM): Ah - what can I say - Not all people living in Texas are Texans?

tracybrant@gryphynmedia.com (10/7/2002 9:20 AM): Rob... what are the indicators that your brand IS developing? Enough to inspire trust and recognition?

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:20 AM): No Frederick, some are from Atlanta or Arkansas

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:20 AM): Pat, you can jump in right now

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:21 AM): Tracy: you can start getting a sense of what's happening based on the kind of reaction you're getting, both random and designed.

Tamra (tamra@hcstudios.com) (10/7/2002 9:21 AM): If they don't trust you, why are they hiring you?

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:22 AM): Everyone gets random inquiries at some point. How are they approaching you? What kind of referrals are you getting? What kind of language do they use?

tracybrant@gryphynmedia.com (10/7/2002 9:22 AM): Sorry for queue-jumping... would you put me in line for another question?

Pat (pht-commerce.net) (10/7/2002 9:22 AM): Rob, thanks. I have a questions about e-mail campaigns. Remember a few weeks ago (perhaps its was last week) when we had a discussion on e-mail campaigns? I'm trying to figure out how often I should send out initial e-mails to prospective clients. You mentioned that you run campaigns also. How often do you do it?

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:22 AM): For example, I get a lot of people asking for help, many using phrases like "I don't know if we can afford you."

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:23 AM): that tells me that their perception of me is as a higher end professional.

Pat (pht-commerce.net) (10/7/2002 9:23 AM): "I don't know if we can afford you." -- I get that a lot.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:23 AM): Pat, I'm reeeeeeally careful to keep my e-mails to a one-shot. I only follow up if they literally ask me to. Sometimes they'll say, "not now, but call in three months." So I do.

tracybrant@gryphynmedia.com (10/7/2002 9:24 AM): What does it mean when they send someone else to talk to you because they are intimidated?

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:24 AM): Tamra asked "If they don't trust you, why are they hiring you? " They're hiring because you have the solution to their problem. These are two separate issues.

Jodie@ScoreBrowniePoints.com (10/7/2002 9:25 AM): re: intimidated... wow - my question would then be: should they even be in business?

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:25 AM): It means that they respect you to the point that they're intimidated by you, usually.

Pat (pht-commerce.net) (10/7/2002 9:25 AM): Rob, I definitely keep my e-mails to a one-shot until they respond. What I'm trying to say is what interval do you use to send out one-shot e-mails? Once a week, once a month, etc.?

diane@astconsulting.com (10/7/2002 9:25 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:25 AM): Sometimes, they feel incapable themselves of negotiating with you, so they send someone with more experience.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:26 AM): Pat, I send out 25 e-mails a day, on average

Tamra (tamra@hcstudios.com) (10/7/2002 9:26 AM): But Rob, shouldn't they "trust" that you have that solution? I don't hire plumbers I don't trust, even if I have a leak. Shouldn't your brand (and you) inspire trust?

Michael Moore - rightawayprinting.com (10/7/2002 9:26 AM): Entered the room.

tracybrant@gryphynmedia.com (10/7/2002 9:26 AM): Is that good, do u think, or should I work on looking more "approachable."

diane@astconsulting.com (10/7/2002 9:27 AM): Hello all---, Rob, what type of content do you send out?

Pat (pht-commerce.net) (10/7/2002 9:27 AM): Rob, I see. The reason why I asked is because right now I send out about 60-70 e-mail twice per month.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:27 AM): Yes, Tamra, your brand should inspire trust, but not as a primary attribute. Your first deliverable is the solution. The brand plays around that solution and part of that supporting act is the trust issue. one is a tactic, the other is a business issue.

Pat (pht-commerce.net) (10/7/2002 9:28 AM): Rob - I'm trying to figure out if I should continue to send them out twice a month or monthly/

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:28 AM): Pat, I simply try to stagger the mailings. usually try to keep the mailing period between Monday night and Thursday afternoon.

Pat (pht-commerce.net) (10/7/2002 9:28 AM): And I do my mailings on Monday mornings.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:28 AM): It's a work flow issue for me. I don't want to have 5,000 follow up calls in one day

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:28 AM): Diane, what exactly do you mean?

diane@astconsulting.com (10/7/2002 9:30 AM): I joined late, so forgive me if all of this is obvious to everyone else--what do your emails contain, what type of content, and what do you mail out?

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:31 AM): I have experimented with outbound e-mails to stimulate business. While the truth is that timing is everything, I have found that different letters invite different response rates. My earlier versions, written by my assistant, drew a respectable 2%. My latest version, written by me personally, have drawn about 5% to 7%

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:31 AM): As far as content goes, I described it in greater detail about two weeks ago in FrankelTips....

diane@astconsulting.com (10/7/2002 9:31 AM): I joined late, so forgive me if all of this is obvious to everyone else--what do your emails contain, what type of content, and what do you mail out?

Cindy Nemeth-Johannes - www.completetest.com (10/7/2002 9:32 AM): Entered the room.

Pat (pht-commerce.net) (10/7/2002 9:32 AM): Rob - Thanks for the information. I was trying to figure out of there was a "correct" way to control the number of e-mails that go out at one time and the best time to do it.

angie@powerfulwords.net (10/7/2002 9:33 AM): Entered the room.

diane@astconsulting.com (10/7/2002 9:33 AM): Thanks, I will check out the FrankelTips soon--I have tried everything!

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:33 AM): pat, you just want to be sure that you can handle the incoming. And if you do it right, there should be a few coming. The tough part is accepting that it almost always comes down to timing.

Norm Price http://www.bottlecaplure.com (10/7/2002 9:34 AM): Entered the room.

Norm Price http://www.bottlecaplure.com (10/7/2002 9:34 AM): Morning

Pat (pht-commerce.net) (10/7/2002 9:35 AM): Rob, exactly. I'm trying to figure out if send out e-mail is best on Monday morning, Tuesday afternoon, etc.

Pat (pht-commerce.net) (10/7/2002 9:35 AM): Sorry for the typos

angie@powerfulwords.net (10/7/2002 9:36 AM): Rob, is there a way to keep from getting accused of spam? I'd like to contact a few high-end web designers and offer content development services, but I don't want to lose my web site to a spam attack.

Norm Price http://www.bottlecaplure.com (10/7/2002 9:36 AM): Morning Mr. Frankel

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:37 AM): Yes, Angie, there is. Of the 3500+ e-mails I've sent, I've only had two head cases accuse me of spam. Everyone else was really cool if they responded, and very polite.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:37 AM): Again, Angie, this is the stuff we discuss in more detail on FrankelTips.

tracybrant@gryphynmedia.com (10/7/2002 9:37 AM): I like Tuesdays for anything that needs a response... I find that Mondays are getting crowded and people just want to delete anything they don't *have* to deal with.

Jonathan (writer/editor - jacohen@telus.net) (10/7/2002 9:37 AM): Angie, one way is to make sure your emails are personalized and not just 'dear XYZ"

diane@astconsulting.com (10/7/2002 9:38 AM): Do you always give them an option to check if they do not want any more emails?

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:38 AM): Pat, Mondays everyone is busy trying to catch up on stuff. So I don't send anything before Monday afternoon. Tuesday Wednesday and Thursday are the golden days. Sometimes Friday morning is okay.

angie@powerfulwords.net (10/7/2002 9:38 AM): Okay, I'm planning to join that in a few days.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:38 AM): No, Diane, because that telegraphs that you are indeed spamming them with a sales hit.

Carla Boulton - carla@naughtymutt.com (10/7/2002 9:38 AM): I never do cold calls or e-mail cold calls on a Monday or Friday as they seem to get binned

angie@powerfulwords.net (10/7/2002 9:39 AM): I'm planning to build a database that includes a little snippet about their business and construct my emails from that.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:39 AM): I also find that really good leads will respond in their off hours or right away. Nothing in between...but that could just be my particular business

Pat (pht-commerce.net) (10/7/2002 9:39 AM): Rob, thanks. Perhaps sending e-mail on Wednesday, for example, will boost my response rate even further.

Mark Roberts (robertscomputing.com) (10/7/2002 9:40 AM): Entered the room.

tracybrant@gryphynmedia.com (10/7/2002 9:41 AM): I have mostly-local, but mostly-online brand. Now I am networking face-to-face and finding people eager to meet me... I don't want to waste that energy... any tips for handling the "rush on the podium" vis-a-vis brand development?

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:41 AM): Yeah, pat. Send them out Monday afternoon -- not at night, because that looks like spam mailing -- or Tuesday morning. Don't be afraid to hit them in the middle of the day, because that's when the most responsive ones want to move stuff off their desks.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:42 AM): Angie, don't try to build that dB too detailed. You won't be using that much data in the letters

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:43 AM): Tracy, just get business cards. I can tell you what happens to me at those events: people rush to give you their business cards, so that they can get business from you, not vice versa....

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:44 AM): It can be very disappointing. Actually, I have NEVER gotten any real business from local speaking gigs. I think most of these people thought that I had lots of business to hand out.

Pat (pht-commerce.net) (10/7/2002 9:44 AM): Rob, I'll try Monday afternoons. Just sent out 30. From now on, I'll try around 2PM.

diane@astconsulting.com (10/7/2002 9:44 AM): Any specific suggestions (or sites to go to ) for following up on a trade show--we had a big one a week ago in Chicago.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:44 AM): They tend to buy books and tapes, but not much else. The higher end business people may attend conferences, but not local events. They do their business on the phone.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:45 AM): Diane, what kind of follow up are you looking for?

Frederick (bspage.com) (10/7/2002 9:45 AM): I know Rob will disagree with me, but this e-mail talk sounds like spam to me. Remember, It doesn't matter what we all think it is here, it's what your recipients think it is that matters - if they see your message as spam, your brand and your business will be badly affected. Take care!

Carla Boulton - carla@naughtymutt.com (10/7/2002 9:45 AM): People have told me they liked it that when I approached them my e-mail had a line including the company name and that person's name

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:45 AM): I have a client http://www.iconvention.com that does that kind of thing

angie@powerfulwords.net (10/7/2002 9:47 AM): Spam is untargeted commercial email. Simply sending an email to someone you don't know is not (necessarily) spam. If you've researched it and you have something to offer them, it's not spam.

Michae@rightawayprinting.com (10/7/2002 9:47 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:47 AM): Frederick, there's nothing wrong is reaching out if you do it professionally and sparingly. If you're perceived as wasting time, they see spam. In my case, one client handed me a fat check because they saw it as the solution they were seeking.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:47 AM): Right Carla, I do that, too. But I don't go into heavy detail in the first e-mail because it looks to mail-merged.

Mark Roberts (robertscomputing.com) (10/7/2002 9:47 AM): For trade shows, could you put several articles that you may have written, together in a book as a promotional tool. Sell them for maybe a buck to two. My thinking...a $ amount shows value, free stuff would get thrown away. I already read stuff like this at night in a hotel room or on a plane home.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:47 AM): I also don't think it's appropriate

Frederick (bspage.com) (10/7/2002 9:48 AM): Like I said, Angie, it doesn't matter what we all think it is here, it's what your recipients think it is that matters - if they see your message as spam, your brand and your business will be badly affected.

Jonathan (writer/editor - jacohen@telus.net) (10/7/2002 9:48 AM): Entered the room.

Michae@rightawayprinting.com (10/7/2002 9:48 AM): Frederick, we just did a large opt-in email drop using beyond ballistics (FrankelBees) and it is clearly not the same as spam....we only had 7 complaints after a 600K mailing

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:48 AM): Frederick, my experience shows that they don't perceive it as spam.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:49 AM): Michael, did you get any business from i? That's the real test.

Michae@rightawayprinting.com (10/7/2002 9:49 AM): we even had one person apologize that their anti-span software had responded, and asked for further info...

Carla Boulton - carla@naughtymutt.com (10/7/2002 9:49 AM): Hi Michael, have you had a good response?

Pat (pht-commerce.net) (10/7/2002 9:50 AM): Frederick, I have to agree with Rob... so far. The e-mails I've sent out yielded responses of "No thank you", "I'm currently working with somebody", or "Please help me!"

Michae@rightawayprinting.com (10/7/2002 9:50 AM): our sales process takes about two weeks

tracybrant@gryphynmedia.com (10/7/2002 9:50 AM): I also have not been accused of spamming... I tend to start by talking about some specific problem I can see. "I noticed your website is unreachable..."

Carla Boulton - carla@naughtymutt.com (10/7/2002 9:51 AM): that is very individual though Tracy unless you trawl for dead sites

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:51 AM): (TEN MINUTE WARNING) Michael, did the campaign pay out for you?

Frederick (bspage.com) (10/7/2002 9:51 AM): Last question on the subject: If you get even a 10% favorable response, what did the other 90% think of your mailing? Did they even read it? Was it not discarded as spam?

Michae@rightawayprinting.com (10/7/2002 9:52 AM): yes, we have had about 15 real requests, and have signed up two clients - because Beyond Ballistics works on a percentage basis, any client is worth the effort

Norm Price http://www.bottlecaplure.com (10/7/2002 9:52 AM): Is it spam when I send out info on my new promotional product?

Pat (pht-commerce.net) (10/7/2002 9:52 AM): Frederick, they could also think "I'll get back to it later."

Michae@rightawayprinting.com (10/7/2002 9:52 AM): opt-in means they already agreed to see promotional materials, Frederick...

Carla Boulton - carla@naughtymutt.com (10/7/2002 9:52 AM): beyond ballistics, what's the URL?

Jonathan (writer/editor - jacohen@telus.net) (10/7/2002 9:53 AM): www.beyondballistic.com

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:53 AM): Frederick, the standard I use is responsive complaints. And yes, you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. As the web matures, so does the classification of what is and isn't spam. You tend to use a broader definition than most of us here do.

Michae@rightawayprinting.com (10/7/2002 9:53 AM): lisa@beyondballistic.com

Pat (pht-commerce.net) (10/7/2002 9:53 AM): Frederick, in my case, a lot of people *are* getting back to me later. A company I sent an e-mail to in my August e-mail campaign got back to me on *Sunday afternoon*.

Jonathan (writer/editor - jacohen@telus.net) (10/7/2002 9:53 AM): (and their web site is only a list of email addresses - maybe it could use Tracy's help :) )

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:54 AM): Pat, I find that, too. A lot of contacts end up replying in their off hours

Carla Boulton - carla@naughtymutt.com (10/7/2002 9:54 AM): Well it made me contact you Michael!

Michae@rightawayprinting.com (10/7/2002 9:54 AM): sorry, I logged in with a typo, anyone who wants to reach me, its michael@rightawayprinting.com

Frederick (bspage.com) (10/7/2002 9:54 AM): The point I'm trying to make, Rob, is that my definition is immaterial - it's what the majority your recipients think it is, that matters to your brand.

Michae@rightawayprinting.com (10/7/2002 9:55 AM): yes Carla!!

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:55 AM): Right, Frederick but you're assuming that your definition is shared by the masses, which is where we disagree.

Cheryl Lynn Spencer (info@quickorganizeme.com) (10/7/2002 9:56 AM): www.beyondballistic.com doesn't exist

Pat (pht-commerce.net) (10/7/2002 9:56 AM): Frederick, how are you communicating with your prospective clients? How are you initiating your conversations?

Michae@rightawayprinting.com (10/7/2002 9:57 AM): Our server was concerned about our mailing, but when we ensured them it was opt-in, they were ok

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:57 AM): Anyway, I think you can see that the web has turned the corner when it comes to pro-active contact. This exchange illustrates that different people are at different levels, but at least we're not all at the same levels. That shows movement.

Michae@rightawayprinting.com (10/7/2002 9:58 AM): I spoke with Lisa at Beyond Ballistics, very solid person, signed some contracts, mail was dropped within 2 weeks

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:58 AM): (TWO MINUTES)

tracybrant@gryphynmedia.com (10/7/2002 9:58 AM): Use the whole "http://www.beyondballistic.com/" Cheryl... they don't have their hosting set up right.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 9:58 AM): Michael, what was the payout? Return on investment?

Michae@rightawayprinting.com (10/7/2002 9:58 AM): here is Lisa Martins office phone # 817-303-2826 - Beyond Ballistics

Frederick (bspage.com) (10/7/2002 9:59 AM): Pat, most of my business is done locally. But where I need to go out 'cold' it is with a one-off e-mail approach to a named individual, referring specifically to something that is individual to that person or company. Anything that shows my e-mail could not be a bulk message.

Michae@rightawayprinting.com (10/7/2002 9:59 AM): Rob, since it only took me a few hours to build the ad, which i can use again, the payout is pure - a percentage of the first sale goes to BB

Pat (pht-commerce.net) (10/7/2002 10:00 AM): Frederick, good. That's exactly what I do.

Michae@rightawayprinting.com (10/7/2002 10:00 AM): payout is pure. we acquire a new client for only a percentage of their first purchase

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 10:00 AM): Yeah, but for some reason Frederick doesn't define that as spam

I have decided to use them too - I like the fact that there is no up-front cost, other than the ad creation (10/7/2002 10:01 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 10:01 AM): Wow, Michael, so you got a pay for performance deal? Good for you!

Pat (pht-commerce.net) (10/7/2002 10:01 AM): As long as the e-mails are individualized, I wouldn't classify it as spam.

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 10:01 AM): Great session today, everyone. Thanks so much for your insights. I love this! I'll see you online!

Michae@rightawayprinting.com (10/7/2002 10:01 AM): Yes Rob, they have a very good model

tracybrant@gryphynmedia.com (10/7/2002 10:01 AM): Thanks for another interesting hour, Rob.

Pat (pht-commerce.net) (10/7/2002 10:01 AM): Have a good week everyone.

Frederick (bspage.com) (10/7/2002 10:01 AM): Repeat, Rob: my definition is immaterial - it's what the recipients think that matters

Michae@rightawayprinting.com (10/7/2002 10:01 AM): found them thanks to your list :-)

Tamra (tamra@hcstudios.com) (10/7/2002 10:02 AM): Bye everyone -- have a good Monday and a great week!

diane@astconsulting.com (10/7/2002 10:02 AM): Thanks everyone

Rob Frankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (10/7/2002 10:02 AM): Send more people to FrankelBiz! I want to grow the list!

Cheryl Lynn Spencer (info@quickorganizeme.com) (10/7/2002 10:02 AM): Bye everyone!

Michae@rightawayprinting.com (10/7/2002 10:02 AM): see you all next week

Jonathan (writer/editor - jacohen@telus.net) (10/7/2002 10:02 AM): bye all - have a great day

Carla Boulton - carla@naughtymutt.com (10/7/2002 10:03 AM): Thanks all Carla

Frederick (bspage.com) (10/7/2002 10:03 AM): Bye Rob and all.

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