Transcript of Frankel's Free Clinic October 22, 2001

katsuey (10/22/101 8:59 AM): Okay, is it really 9:00 Pacific time now?

Don Goddard (10/22/101 8:59 AM): yes

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:01 AM): YES! IT'S TIME!

Mickie Kennedy (10/22/101 9:01 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:01 AM): Sorry I'm a bit caught up in a chat outside. What's up....?

katsuey (10/22/101 9:02 AM): Okay, I'm here - you can start now

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:02 AM): Who's on first? What's on second?

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:02 AM): I don't know's on third.

Jacob- (10/22/101 9:02 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:03 AM): Katsuey, did you have something to ask?

Jacob- (10/22/101 9:03 AM): Hello all!

katsuey (10/22/101 9:03 AM): Nah, Rob, I'm just here to look

Jerome Sierra (10/22/101 9:03 AM): Entered the room.

Frederick (BSP) (10/22/101 9:03 AM): Entered the room.

Steve Thomas (10/22/101 9:04 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:04 AM): Okie doke...anyone else? The clinic is open to anyone -- but we like to let the new guys go first.

Jeremy Weiss ( (10/22/101 9:04 AM): Entered the room.

Steve Thomas (10/22/101 9:05 AM): Rob, last week you mentioned emailing CEO's. Are there reliable email lists? How avoid spam?

katsuey (10/22/101 9:05 AM): Well if no one else asks anything, I'll give you a nice broad question - how do I brand my design business better than I've done so far =

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:06 AM): Steve, there are indeed reliable ways to get lists, but I DON'T recommend them. For the most part, everyone I know has had terrible results with lists.

Ken McArthur - (10/22/101 9:06 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:06 AM): There are, however, various services that provide contact information of decision makers. I suggest you use those.

Jerome Sierra (10/22/101 9:07 AM): To contact CEO, I will suggest to look for article where they quoted and send them an email to congrat them

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:07 AM): The key here, Steve, is harvesting the e-mail addresses that are truly relevant to your business. I want to make it clear that I do NOT send a letter to every CEO I find

Steve Thomas (10/22/101 9:07 AM): I don't know what those services would be. How are they different from lists? Any you can recommend, or how do I find out where they are?

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:08 AM): Jerome, that works on a onesy-twosy basis. But I'm talking about harvesting 50 at a time, maybe 100, and merging a cool introduction letter to them all.

Steve Thomas (10/22/101 9:08 AM): Nice suggestion, Jerome. Thanks.

katsuey (10/22/101 9:08 AM): I have been wondering about your recommendation of sending email because I detest all this Spam I get from people who say they've looked at my business, but trust me, they haven't.

Jerome Sierra (10/22/101 9:08 AM): I get 60% response rate from these offers.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:09 AM): Steve -- I have a difficult issue of confidentiality here, so let me say this: I would do a search on words like "lead" or "business leads". Got it?

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:09 AM): Jerome, it depends on what you're selling. In my case, I have a very involved message. Yet I still pull about 4% response.

katsuey (10/22/101 9:10 AM): Rob, you recommend spam?

Tamra ( (10/22/101 9:10 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:10 AM): Katsuey, it's all in the letter. I never sell. I always introduce an opportunity to open a dialogue. I take the higher road. And the letter is just awesome, if I do say so.

Ellen ( (10/22/101 9:11 AM): Entered the room.

Jacob- (10/22/101 9:11 AM): Katsuey - on the bottom-right of your homepage you have to change "hcarity" to "charity." FYI

katsuey (10/22/101 9:11 AM): Sorry, I turn off if the person knows nothing about my business

katsuey (10/22/101 9:11 AM): It's spam to me.

Jerome Sierra (10/22/101 9:11 AM): The key to get CEO's attention is to boost their ego and tell them are great they are

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:11 AM): Katsuey, I don't recommend spam. Spam is hard selling, anonymous junk. I offer an invitation to concerns who have real, true common interests. Plus, I can back up everything I send them -- with the book, its reviews, links to published articles and interviews, etc.

katsuey (10/22/101 9:12 AM): Yes, I get those Spam emails that tell me how great my business is, but then the content of the letter shows it's a form letter and they don't have a clue about my business

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:12 AM): That's the whole point, katsuey -- we only contact those whose businesses we do know about. That's what makes the letter as effective as they are. More importantly, we only contact those who are clearly to benefit.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:13 AM): Jerome, you are clever!

katsuey (10/22/101 9:13 AM): I'm disappointed Rob - I really thought that you would have been resources

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:13 AM): Katsuey, That's why spam doesn't work -- you can see through it. My stuff isn't at all like that.

katsuey (10/22/101 9:14 AM): Well, I haven't seen your letter Rob, but I sure have seen a lot of "butter up" stuff that shows it is merely spam

Ellen ( (10/22/101 9:14 AM): Hi everyone..hope you are all well.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:14 AM): Look, Katsuey, you have to see it from the proper perspective: People who put their contact information on their web sites put it there for a reason: They want to be contacted. Not annoyed or sold, but contacted. Do you understand the difference?

katsuey (10/22/101 9:15 AM): ... and I DETEST spam

Jerome Sierra (10/22/101 9:15 AM): I think that CEO will not consider your message Spam if you send genuine letter to tell them about your appreciation for what they are doing.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:15 AM): Katsuye, think about my whole branding ethic: It's about THEM, not about you. When someone contacts you directly from out of the blue, some appeal to you and some -- most -- don't. What is it about the ones who DO appeal that don't make them sound like SPAM?

katsuey (10/22/101 9:16 AM): Rob, I've had to change all my sites to cloak my email address and make it harder for truly interested customers to contact me because of all the spam I get. Last night in 1 hour I received 8 spam mails

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:16 AM): Dead-ass on target, Jerome. You got it.

Tamra ( (10/22/101 9:16 AM): Hi all. I get lots of spams from folks selling me *my services...

katsuey (10/22/101 9:16 AM): Them? I'm one of them and I'm telling you SPAM is BAD

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:16 AM): Right, Katsuey -- and you will get LESS business because of it.

Frederick (BSP) (10/22/101 9:16 AM): People with their e-mail address on their website want to be contacted - true - but they want to be contacted about THEIR business, not the writers!

Tamra ( (10/22/101 9:17 AM): about not reading a web site. Whatever you do, don't try to sell your services to your competition.

katsuey (10/22/101 9:17 AM): Rob, that's why I hate spam. They make it harder for others

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:17 AM): My e-mail address is out there for everyone to use -- because people can't hire you if you make it difficult for them to contact you.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:17 AM): Frederick, absolutely right -- which should give you a clue as to how to write your introductory letter.

katsuey (10/22/101 9:17 AM): Frederick, you got it. I'm in business to provide services, not to read to delete hundreds of spam mail

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:18 AM): No, Katsuey, SPAMMERS make it easier for people like me, because they give the recipients a chance to say, "See? This Frankel guy really knows what he's doing -- not like all those spammers!"

Christina - (10/22/101 9:18 AM): Entered the room.

katsuey (10/22/101 9:18 AM): Rob, I've hung on without cloaking for 4 years and I simply had to make the decision that I don't have time for deleting all the spam which then hides email from true customers

Ellen ( (10/22/101 9:18 AM): personally I find it very easy to recognize spam before even opening it

John (10/22/101 9:19 AM): But Katsuey you don't know what you lost as a result to cloaking.

katsuey (10/22/101 9:19 AM): Ellen, yes in some cases but unfortunately not all - they are getting trickier

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:19 AM): Katsuey, I have about 8 spam filters set on Eudora that catch about 98% of the spam. Then I just read the headers in the Trash bin before I empty it to make sure nothing of value got tripped up. Then I flush.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:19 AM): You are SO right, John.

katsuey (10/22/101 9:20 AM): As I said, I'm disappointed Rob. I don't think your way is the high road, and I did expect you to take the high road

Elizabeth (10/22/101 9:20 AM): Entered the room.

Elizabeth (10/22/101 9:20 AM): If not email, how WOULD you like to be contacted?

katsuey (10/22/101 9:21 AM): John, I do know what I was losing with 4 years of spam. I wish you all would stop the spam and then I could get back to business

John (10/22/101 9:21 AM): Folks there is a simple rule in sales. Sometimes you have to beat people over the head to get them to do what is in their own best interests.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:21 AM): Katsuey, you just don't see the difference, Katsuey, that's all. There's a huge difference between initiating a business relationship and spamming. And that's why my campaigns work and spam doesn't. Let me put it to you this way: How would YOU go about introducing yourself to a business that you know could use your services?

Frederick (BSP) (10/22/101 9:21 AM): No John!

katsuey (10/22/101 9:22 AM): Elizabeth, if you take a real look at my businesses and then want to contact because we might have a fit, that would be alright. But I get people who are in competition with me and have NO clue what my business is, saying they have looked.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:22 AM): John, you're losing me, too. That's client management, not sales!

John (10/22/101 9:22 AM): Reasonable people know where you draw the line.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:22 AM): Katsuey, read my previous question and answer that if you will....

Ken McArthur - (10/22/101 9:22 AM): I for one don't want to shut myself off to vendors that have relevant ideas and products. My product would be pretty dull if I didn't look at new ideas and I hope that people with relevant products and services contact me. The delete key is pretty easy for me to push.

John (10/22/101 9:23 AM): I'm talking about the difference between cold calling and harassment.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:23 AM): I agree with Ken. Anyone here read FrankelTips this morning?

katsuey (10/22/101 9:23 AM): Rob, I learn about the specific business (not something you can do while harvesting 50 to 100 addresses a time) and then I send a PERSONAL email to that company explaining the benefits of my services to THEM specifically. Slow, but it's definitely NOT spam

Elizabeth (10/22/101 9:24 AM): I did!

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:24 AM): No, Katsuey. The only difference is the rate at which you're contacting them, that's all.

Tamra ( (10/22/101 9:25 AM): I'm alt-tabbing between FrankelTips and this as I type. (multitasking before coffee, even!)

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:25 AM): Great, Elizabeth!! I wrote about how different people's selling tactics come off differently to different people. One man's spam is another man's introduction. In FrankelTips, I warned that selling too hard comes off as desperation, while too soft a sell can come off as begging for business.

katsuey (10/22/101 9:25 AM): Rob, you can't learn about 50 businesses just by harvesting their email addresses. Sure you may know the industry, but you won't know THEIR needs

Ben Woodward - (10/22/101 9:26 AM): Entered the room.

katsuey (10/22/101 9:26 AM): You have to visit their site and read relevant news about THEM

John (10/22/101 9:26 AM): Katsuey, if their email address corresponds to their website you could learn a lot in five minutes. Provided their website is worth a damn.

Frederick (BSP) (10/22/101 9:26 AM): I'm with you on this one, Kat. 1 or 2 spams a day would be okay, but when you get 100+ a day as I do, NOBODDY gets through, not even Rob's perfect approach, I'm afraid.

katsuey (10/22/101 9:26 AM): I haven't gotten through all the spam to get to the newsletter yet Rob

Ben Woodward - (10/22/101 9:26 AM): Kat, I think you may be confusing the issue here. I understand where you're coming from, but there has to be a first-generation filtering process.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:27 AM): Katsuey, the fact is that what I sell can be adapted to all the businesses I contact. NOBODY expects you to be an expert in THER business. They're the experts. I can add to their profitability. My invitation is to discuss whether they'd be interested in getting to know more about EACH OTHER in order to do that.

Jerome Sierra (10/22/101 9:27 AM): I think that perception is key. I agree with you Rob

Ben Woodward - (10/22/101 9:27 AM): If someone sends me an email that at least doesn't look like it's been created by a machine, I'll skim it and decide for myself if it's relevant.

katsuey (10/22/101 9:27 AM): Yes John, if you bother to visit - but then you wouldn't need to collect their email address from spam lists if you were going to visit their site.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:28 AM): WHOA! Who said anything about "perfect"? What I can tell you is that after 1,000 contacts, we've had zero complaints of "list removal" requests -- and several "nice letter -- glad to discuss it further with you."

katsuey (10/22/101 9:28 AM): Well You've answered my broad question about branding Rob. My brand is that *I* do learn about their business before contacting them.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:28 AM): Ben, that's the key. I agree.

Dave Vallieres (10/22/101 9:28 AM): Entered the room.

Ben Woodward - (10/22/101 9:28 AM): As a designer, I only put *real* effort into a pitch if I get *any* semblance of interest from a potential client...

katsuey (10/22/101 9:28 AM): No complaints Rob because we are all afraid to respond to spam and thereby increase our spam

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:29 AM): THAT'S the important point folks -- you can't sell on one e-mail. But you can introduce yourself. once they get to know you, THEN they can decide if they want to buy.

katsuey (10/22/101 9:29 AM): I don't "pitch" without giving each "pitch" a REAL effort

Ben Woodward - (10/22/101 9:29 AM): I think that's it, Rob. Nice pick.

Christina - (10/22/101 9:29 AM): How much is your FrankelTips newsletter, Rob?

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:30 AM): SPAM tries to sell you on one hit. And more often than not, I get the same spam message two or three times so I know it's bullshit.

katsuey (10/22/101 9:30 AM): Rob, if you want to do business with me, why should it be I that gets to know you. YOU should get to know ME

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:30 AM): $24 a year Christina. A bargain!

Peter Clough (10/22/101 9:30 AM): Entered the room.

Ben Woodward - (10/22/101 9:30 AM): I think you're misunderstanding the term, "real" now...

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:30 AM): Click the gold FrankelTips button up at your right there for details.

katsuey (10/22/101 9:31 AM): I have four separate businesses so I get each one at least 4 fold but most come from about 8 people sending the same email so it's about 32!

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:31 AM): Katsuey, I'm not telling you that I won't get to know you. I'm saying that someone has to make the first move so I CAN get to know you!

Jonathan Cohen ( (10/22/101 9:31 AM): Entered the room.

Jonathan Cohen ( (10/22/101 9:31 AM): [good morning, belatedly]

katsuey (10/22/101 9:32 AM): Get to know me, then make the move. take the time to do your research.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:32 AM): Hmmm, Katsuey -- what's Frankel's First Law of Big Time Branding?????

katsuey (10/22/101 9:32 AM): Make them think you are the ONLY brand

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:32 AM): (BTW, does anyone have any other issues? Please jump in before the hour burns up!)

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:33 AM): NO!

katsuey (10/22/101 9:33 AM): There is no other choice - but let's add - don't spam them while you are at it

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:33 AM): Frankel's First Law is that "Brands are not about you. Brands are about THEM"

Ben Woodward - (10/22/101 9:33 AM): I disagree, Kat. I'd rather provide my time to the clients that hire me and pay my bills than take my time from them to try getting new clients that may or may not have any interest in my services. It's all about finding the appropriate venues for your time...

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:34 AM): I write to them on their behalf. My own brand products and services back that up.

katsuey (10/22/101 9:34 AM): But Rob, I am the "you" when I get spammed and they are simply ridiculous message

Mickie Kennedy (10/22/101 9:34 AM): Does anyone recommend Search Engine Optimization?

katsuey (10/22/101 9:34 AM): You all are taking the easy way out. there is no excuse for spam and it's not a business method.

Mickie Kennedy (10/22/101 9:34 AM): Where do you find a good SEO? So many unknowns and pricing variances.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:34 AM): Forget what other spammers do. We're talking about the way you contact people to introduce yourself -- itself a statement about your brand.

Jerome Sierra (10/22/101 9:34 AM): Yes. What's the best way to select a business name?

katsuey (10/22/101 9:34 AM): Mickie, you bet!

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:34 AM): For what, Mickie?

Christina - (10/22/101 9:35 AM): Someone just came out with an e-book about that, Mickie

Christina - (10/22/101 9:35 AM): I think it's

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:35 AM): Jerome, the best way is to start with your brand strategy.

Mickie Kennedy (10/22/101 9:35 AM): I've been quotes $5k by one SEO expert; $500 a month from another.

Dave Vallieres (10/22/101 9:35 AM): If it looks like 'spam' it is 'spam'...but I think Rob is talking about a completely different thing here...more intelligent contact

katsuey (10/22/101 9:36 AM): Mickie, are very good, we recommend them and everyone we've sent is happy.

Christina - (10/22/101 9:36 AM): wow! Mickie!

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:36 AM): Mickie, the ONE thing I'd recommend about SEO is to get as many references as you can and check them out.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:36 AM): Bingo, Dave. Exactly.

katsuey (10/22/101 9:36 AM): Mickie, it's darned expensive.

Tamra ( (10/22/101 9:36 AM): Mickie, check out -- good quality people hang out there

Mickie Kennedy (10/22/101 9:36 AM): -- combining email delivery and traditional wire service.

Christina - (10/22/101 9:36 AM): you should check out the marketingsherpa site - they have a lot of information there about SEO companies

michael kimsal ( (10/22/101 9:37 AM): Entered the room.

katsuey (10/22/101 9:37 AM): RankWrite is also very informative site

Tamra ( (10/22/101 9:37 AM): Also, remember SEO is really *marketing* not just running search engine reports or submitting

Peter Clough (10/22/101 9:37 AM): Rob, you used to be very high on Webster Group for SEO - still believe in them?

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:37 AM): Jerome, very difficult to come up wit your own name, mainly because of the DIY'll concentrate too much on what you have to sell instead of what they want to buy.

John Charlesworth ( - Professional Web Tracking) (10/22/101 9:37 AM): Entered the room.

Christina - (10/22/101 9:38 AM): hi, Michael

Jerome Sierra (10/22/101 9:38 AM): What is DIY...?

Jerome Sierra (10/22/101 9:38 AM): What is DIY...?

michael kimsal ( (10/22/101 9:38 AM): hi all - :)

Peter Clough (10/22/101 9:38 AM): Do it Yourself

Mickie Kennedy (10/22/101 9:38 AM): Jill Whalen of RankWrite is the $5k quote.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:38 AM): Mickie, although my ranking has slipped a bit, I can tell you that for "branding" Google still lists me in its top 15 or 20, without ANY SEO services.

Tamra ( (10/22/101 9:39 AM): DIY -- do it yourself. You must not be a homeowner...millions of DIY products out there for homeowners!

katsuey (10/22/101 9:39 AM): There are many types of SEO services. We do SEO for our design customers but it's not the same service as what promotewebs does

Mickie Kennedy (10/22/101 9:39 AM): Thanks.

Jerome Sierra (10/22/101 9:39 AM): No I am French so I do not know these terms :)

Peter Clough (10/22/101 9:39 AM): DIY -also a great Peter Gabriel tune from around 1980...

Steve Thomas (10/22/101 9:40 AM): Webster group seo

John (10/22/101 9:41 AM): That's okay Jerome, I'm not ultra hip so I didn't know what it meant either.

Peter Clough (10/22/101 9:42 AM): I'm launching a new site this week The Wine Search Engine. Aimed at Collectors, and other serious wine fans. Anyone know many wine columnists?

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:42 AM): Wow...Peter Gabriel fans!

Frederick (BSP) (10/22/101 9:42 AM): You're not hip, John, with a domain like Virtumundo?!

Steve Thomas (10/22/101 9:42 AM): Webster group seo

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:43 AM): Peter, you should do great now that fizzled.

John (10/22/101 9:43 AM): I didn't

Dave Vallieres (10/22/101 9:43 AM): Peter: Will you have wine 'auctions' on your new site too?

John (10/22/101 9:43 AM): name it.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:43 AM): I also want to recommend that you take advantage of our FrankelBiz sponsor, who already got me a Wall Street Journal interview:

John (10/22/101 9:43 AM): I didn't name it.

Jerome Sierra (10/22/101 9:43 AM): Back to the business name question, what do you think of the name "Email Guru" for my service Does it make sense?

Peter Clough (10/22/101 9:44 AM): No we do not sell at all - we search 100 retailer databases nationwide for 25,000+ different wines. Price Comparisons, recorded pronunciations..

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:44 AM): Tracey calls you or you contact her, let her know you're from FrankelBiz. Worth a 33% discount!

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:44 AM): I'm telling you, this service really works.

Jonathan Cohen ( (10/22/101 9:44 AM): Peter - try for a list of online wine magazines and newsletters.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:44 AM): Any other questions from the gallery?

Tamra ( (10/22/101 9:45 AM): I know a couple of winemakers at the big Oregon wineries...I have in-laws in the biz!

Ben Woodward - (10/22/101 9:45 AM): Jerome, I think it makes sense. You might have a bit of a challenge in front of you when you start differentiating your biz from your competition... it also depends on what you DO... it's tough to say "good" or "bad" without knowing what you do...

Peter Clough (10/22/101 9:45 AM): thanks Jonathon

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:45 AM): Excellent suggestion, Jonathan. We get a ton of traffic for from They're in the top ten most viewed sites on the web.

Dave Vallieres (10/22/101 9:45 AM): Is anyone using Overture PPP (formerly GoTo) with any success?

Elizabeth (10/22/101 9:45 AM): An interesting note on regular mail

what's the lowest price out there for co-reg leads now days / (10/22/101 9:46 AM): Entered the room.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:46 AM): I like the name, Jerome. As long as you keep the tone of the brand light and don't believe your own press.

Elizabeth (10/22/101 9:46 AM): I received a direct mail piece this AM

Peter Clough (10/22/101 9:46 AM): GoTo/overture has been very good to me for several clients.

Dave Vallieres (10/22/101 9:46 AM): ppp= Pay-Per-Placement

katsuey (10/22/101 9:46 AM): Nope, but I get pretty good Overture results for free because other search engines rank me well

Christina - (10/22/101 9:46 AM): the only PPC's I use are GoTo (Overture) and FindWhat

Elizabeth (10/22/101 9:46 AM): with a label that said "if you have any questions about the origin of this letter please contact...

Dave Vallieres (10/22/101 9:46 AM): Peter: In what industries?

Tamra ( (10/22/101 9:46 AM): I spend about $.05 a week on GoTo...not much traffic on my keywords. Some of my clients do good there, though.

katsuey (10/22/101 9:46 AM): I'm with Rob on PPP - no way

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:47 AM): Personally, I think it will be over for Overture within the future.

Peter Clough (10/22/101 9:47 AM): come on Rob, that is a business model that actually works - unlike most of the other idealab companies

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:47 AM): I have NEVER....repeat NEVER...gotten anything meaningful from GoTo, other than lots of grist for the columns I write

Christina - (10/22/101 9:47 AM): why's that, Rob?

John (10/22/101 9:48 AM): Yeah Peter, but they made a major branding faux pas.

Dave Vallieres (10/22/101 9:48 AM): I'm always leery of 'name changes'- means their having trouble with their brand as GoTo?? What's your opinion Rob?

Steve Thomas (10/22/101 9:48 AM): Rob, what don't you like about PPP?

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:48 AM): Peter, I think that PPC/PPA works, but not the way GoTo is structured. That's the model for It works for us.

Christina - (10/22/101 9:48 AM): I get more business from GoTo than FindWhat and I have less keywords on GoTo

what's the lowest price out there for co-reg leads now days / (10/22/101 9:48 AM): does anyone know what the lowest price out there on opt-in co-reg leads ?

Peter Clough (10/22/101 9:49 AM): Dave, project management software, book publishing -author names and book titles exact matches - GENRAL words did NOT work well..

Peter Clough (10/22/101 9:49 AM):

katsuey (10/22/101 9:49 AM): Christina, why pay for clicks? Why not just optimize your site well and people who want the service will come

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:49 AM): I wrote a good deal about that early on in FrankelTips, as a matter of fact. The short story is this: when you pay to place, the big boys crowd out the listings. Very often, they crowd out the more qualified listings. And on the web, people seek out what they want, not what you've got.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:50 AM): It's a flawed short term strategy on Goto's part.

Peter Clough (10/22/101 9:50 AM): PPC works TODAY - not week a and months from now when optimization kicks in - Do both.

John (10/22/101 9:51 AM): Lowest street price for co-reg is around .15

katsuey (10/22/101 9:51 AM): That's the problem with business, every one wants things now!

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:51 AM): Peter, is a site I created to prove that PPC can and does work if it's done properly. It's a quasi-adult site (no pictures) that "brings couples together". Our ads get click through rates of between 3% and 14%.

katsuey (10/22/101 9:51 AM): I purposely won't click a site that pays

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:51 AM): (TEN MINUTE WARNING)

Peter Clough (10/22/101 9:51 AM): "People seek out what they want not what you've got is the biggest truth of this session. Nice. going to steal that one Rob.

Christina - (10/22/101 9:51 AM): Kat, I need to keep up with the competition and the easiest, most efficient way for me to do that is PPC

Jonathan Cohen ( (10/22/101 9:51 AM): Rob: for a Web site selling a service online, do you think brochure-type sites (which most folks are familiar with) are preferable to more offbeat options such as a sales letter approach?

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:52 AM): Hey, buy the book and tapes -- that's where this all comes from! You can steal even more!

Christina - (10/22/101 9:52 AM): Personally, I favour PPC engines because they tend to have more qualified listings

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:52 AM): Jonathan, why not do both?

Jonathan Cohen ( (10/22/101 9:52 AM): how so?

Peter Clough (10/22/101 9:52 AM): Got the book - arrived recently, it's buried here somewhere...

John Charlesworth ( - Professional Web Tracking) (10/22/101 9:53 AM): The book's good. [plug for Rob]

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:53 AM): I contact them and then give them links to explore. Low pressure. They find what they want and buy it.

Jonathan Cohen ( (10/22/101 9:53 AM): Rob - ah...I've actually seen some sites structured as a sales letter, with links off of that.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:53 AM): Thanks John. Always appreciate a third party endorsement

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:54 AM): NO, Jonathan, I think those "sales" sites aim too low. They serve a good purpose for low end businesses, though. I don't do business that way, because mine is a higher-end sale.

Jonathan Cohen ( (10/22/101 9:55 AM): got it - thanks, Rob. (And I'm waiting for your book to come to Chapters in Canada!)

Tamra ( (10/22/101 9:55 AM): Did some work for a big ad agency, they did the sales letter style site for one product. Worked well for that specific situation -- lead the reader through step by step. I think there are drawbacks to that style, though.

John Charlesworth ( - Professional Web Tracking) (10/22/101 9:55 AM): I waited 4 months for Chapters to ship it--finally cancelled and got it in a week from Amazon.

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:56 AM): Jonathan, Chapters DOES have it, but they have to special order it -- takes 6 weeks. You can get it tomorrow if you go to ...NOW what's your excuse?!?!?!?

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:56 AM): Ack! Don't buy it from amazon! Buy it from my site -- that way I can send you a thank you letter!

Peter Clough (10/22/101 9:56 AM): call rob at the office it'll be there tomorrow!

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:57 AM): Call Rob today and I'll drive it over myself!

Peter Clough (10/22/101 9:57 AM): See!

Jonathan Cohen ( (10/22/101 9:57 AM): Okay, okay! I have a bit of an aversion to using credit cards, that's all :)

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:57 AM): Tamra, I think SOME copy is good, but not too long. That's what I love about the web. Readers can click their way along to their own interests.

John Charlesworth ( - Professional Web Tracking) (10/22/101 9:58 AM): Jonathan, since Rob's willing to deliver, maybe you should get the book/pizza combo while you're at it ;-)

Christina - (10/22/101 9:58 AM): why do you have an aversion to credit cards, Jonathan?

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:58 AM): (TWO MINUTES)

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:58 AM): Special free cheesy bread.

what's the lowest price out there for co-reg leads now days / (10/22/101 9:59 AM): john is that for an opt-in co-reg lead /

Peter Clough (10/22/101 9:59 AM): Jonathan it's your DUTY to shop online!

Ben Woodward - (10/22/101 9:59 AM): Alright. The cheesy bread did it... where's my wallet?

Dave Vallieres (10/22/101 9:59 AM): I used to buy lots of books on Amazon- now I go straight to the publisher or self-publisher's page...Amazon's time delay is terrible and the tacked on huge shipping sees.

Jonathan Cohen ( (10/22/101 9:59 AM): Christina - it's a long story; I was harassed for trying to use one when I was younger (and longhaired and scruffy)

Jonathan Cohen ( (10/22/101 9:59 AM): Peter - my duty??

John Charlesworth ( - Professional Web Tracking) (10/22/101 9:59 AM): Jonathan, maybe Rob takes PayPal??

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 9:59 AM): Yup. I use Amazon as a search engine. People who don't know me find me there through the book.

Peter Clough (10/22/101 9:59 AM): Direct Publishing rules! - free Halloween e-book!

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 10:00 AM): If you must, I have a PayPal account; "robfrankel"

Dave Vallieres (10/22/101 10:00 AM): That's "FEES" not "SEES" ;-)

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 10:00 AM): Peter, you are SO right!

Jonathan Cohen ( (10/22/101 10:00 AM): okay - that's cool.

Peter Clough (10/22/101 10:00 AM): We took a zShop on Amazon solely to tap into their database

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 10:00 AM): Wow! GREAT session today, everyone! Thanks!

Rob Frankel ( (10/22/101 10:00 AM): I'll see you online!

John Charlesworth ( - Professional Web Tracking) (10/22/101 10:01 AM): See y'all next week!

Dave Vallieres (10/22/101 10:01 AM): Goodbye all...have a GREEEEEAT one...

Jonathan Cohen ( (10/22/101 10:01 AM): later, all - off to work :)

Frederick (BSP) (10/22/101 10:01 AM): Time to go - Bye! Thanks Rob

Jonathan Cohen ( (10/22/101 10:01 AM): thanks Rob.

Steve Thomas (10/22/101 10:01 AM): Thanks, Rob

Don Goddard (10/22/101 10:01 AM): bye

Christina - (10/22/101 10:03 AM): bye

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