Transcript of Frankel's Free Clinic October 25, 1999

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:00 AM): Greetings, all...what's happening this magnificent Monday morning?

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:00 AM): Good morning, Rob!

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:01 AM): Doing great, JoAnna! going crazy trying to keep everything up-to-date, ya know? *grin* (10/25/99 9:02 AM): Hi, Rob! Good Morning!

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:02 AM): You think we should devote today's session to solving Howard Stern's marriage? (kidding)

Andy TeBockhorst (10/25/99 9:02 AM): Entered the room. (10/25/99 9:02 AM): not a fan of his.

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:03 AM): *laffin* I didn't know anyone would marry him, Rob! Hiya Andy!

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:03 AM): You do know, don't you, that it's a branding issue (kidding again)...

Andy TeBockhorst (10/25/99 9:03 AM): We don't get Howard in Des Moines... is his marriage in trouble?? You're Kidding?!?!? (10/25/99 9:03 AM): I moved to Littlerock, CA (outside of palmdale) and I don't get many radio stations any more.

Andy TeBockhorst (10/25/99 9:03 AM): Morning Terri (10/25/99 9:03 AM): Hi, Andy

Andy TeBockhorst (10/25/99 9:04 AM): JoAnna, how's it going? (10/25/99 9:04 AM): I've got my cup of peach tea, it's still warm, so life is good!

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:05 AM): Well, I suppose it happens to everyone whose been married long enough. Sometimes it breaks you, sometimes it makes you stronger.

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:05 AM): JoAnna, I thought you were on the west side. (10/25/99 9:06 AM): Yeah, I was! I don't miss the car alarms or the early-morning garbage trucks, but I miss "civilization!" (10/25/99 9:07 AM): Renting a 3-br house with a yard for less than a 1br apt in

Tasha (10/25/99 9:07 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:08 AM): Okay, what's up for today? (10/25/99 9:10 AM): I don't have anything pressing, I just need human contact that doesn't revolve around my dog.

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:11 AM): Woof.

Tasha (10/25/99 9:11 AM): about the same (10/25/99 9:12 AM): Tasha, are you new, or has it really been a while since I've been on chat!?

Tasha (10/25/99 9:12 AM): I haven't been in a long time

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:13 AM): Alright, well then how's everyone's online business going...I don't know about you, but all of a sudden, September exploded...

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:13 AM): I just got my other domain registered and bought a new one called Rob - Do you use doorway pages? Or have an opinion about how effective they are? (10/25/99 9:13 AM): What's your business? What do you do?

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:14 AM): Do you notice that your businesses ebb and month hardly a trickle, next month too much? (10/25/99 9:14 AM): Totally. I think for me it has to do with fish or cut bait syndrome

Tasha (10/25/99 9:14 AM): I have a retail store on the net, but I've kind of let it go. I'm getting more into web design

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:15 AM): Terri, the only reason I use doorway pages is to avoid framing the first page of the site. If your index page is framed, many of the search spiders miss it.

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:15 AM): My index page isn't framed, Rob - I use tables

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:16 AM): If your index page isn't framed, then why use a doorway page?

Andy TeBockhorst (10/25/99 9:16 AM): The only doorway pages I've seen are pretty much graphical in nature, which deters the search engines from finding your content, does it not?

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:16 AM): I haven't really gotten "sales" from my site, but I get a lot of job seekers sending me their resumes

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:17 AM): Just the opposite, Andy. You can load everything the engines need on a doorway page, but why would you if you don't need to?

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:17 AM): To have more individual URLs to submit to search engines, Rob! *G* (10/25/99 9:17 AM): I'm guessing the doorway is the same as a splash?

Tasha (10/25/99 9:17 AM): Yes it does, most search engines use text contents in addition to meta tags

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:17 AM): What's that telling you Terri???? You may be in the wrong business....

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:18 AM): Actually, the doorway page is more a "mirror", JoAnna - it's my index page on other sites that links to my main site

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:18 AM): Or that I am not hitting my target market yet, Rob :)

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:18 AM): Terri, you don't need a doorway just for more URL's -- I have 8 index pages for my site, one for each URL.... (10/25/99 9:19 AM): Entered the room.

Andy TeBockhorst (10/25/99 9:19 AM): I have a client who is a realtor. She wants a webpage to convey her professionalism, her community involvement, etc. as well as her listings.

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:19 AM): Interesting, brings up the question of what to do when a "business force" keeps knocking at your door. (10/25/99 9:19 AM): Rob, just because I get a lot of junk mail, doesn't mean I want to go into direct marketing... you have to disregard the static (incoming resumes, which I also get a lot of...but I have no interest in doing placements, so it's just a waste of time)

Andy TeBockhorst (10/25/99 9:20 AM): I have parked it behind my band's webpage at My question is once this is up and running, how do I go about getting the word out to the right people?

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:20 AM): Maybe so, JoAnna, but if you get hundreds of resumes -- and on the site offer to post them for $10 a piece, is that bad?

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:21 AM): Are you saying the "business force" is the job seeker, Rob?

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:21 AM): Andy, "flyingmarsupials" is conveying "professionalism"/ Do we have a branding issue here? (10/25/99 9:21 AM): I tried that...there are so many places to post them for free, that it's scarcely worth pursuing

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:22 AM): Yes, Terri....sometimes, you have to look at the market forces and go with them -- from a business POV. (10/25/99 9:22 AM): Terri, do you find the same thing?

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:22 AM): I agree with JoAnna on that, Rob - there are a ton of places for free and a LOT of my resumes are from passive seekers that don't want to be out in "public"

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:23 AM): JoAnna, if you post -- right on your site -- that you charge for the service, two things will happen: 1. Serious people will send money 2. Junk-o's will turn and run.

Andy TeBockhorst (10/25/99 9:23 AM): The Flying Marsupials is my band. This site I'm talking about is just temporarily parked behind my band's.

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:24 AM): You're both missing the point -- if people know in advance that you charge to post, you let the website do the work of screening them out. (10/25/99 9:24 AM): Rob, one thing happens, they go somewhere that they can post it for free. They'll still send them via email and fax. because it's free for them to do it. That's one of the hardest parts of doing a legitimate recruiting over the web.

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:24 AM): But one of the places that I get hundreds of resumes from DOES charge $50 to blast out resumes to businesses and recruiters. And judging by the numbers of them that come from there, it is a VERY profitable endeavor!

Andy TeBockhorst (10/25/99 9:24 AM): Incidentally, we just opened up for Lynyrd Skynyrd and ZZ Top last Saturday night. Very Fun, big crowd, sold out arena, etc.

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:24 AM): Andy, you should definitely get your real estate friend on to and They're both getting a lot of action. (10/25/99 9:25 AM): (Rob, you sent your reply before I finished typing)

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:25 AM): Where did you play, Andy? (10/25/99 9:25 AM): But Terry, is that the kind of resume service you want to spend your time doing? (10/25/99 9:26 AM): Poor Rob, every time Terri and I come on together, the chat revolves around recruiting...)

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:26 AM): Ladies, the point is that people are paying for the service. The only question is whether you are willing to take their money for it.

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:26 AM): No it isn't, JoAnna. My true passion is making the match between the employer and the employee :)

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:27 AM): You know why? Because EVERY forum I've been a panelist on in the last six months brings up HR as a MAJOR growth issue.

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:27 AM): But, if I am posting the resumes on the site, then I would want money to do that

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:27 AM): Your problem is that you don't want to take the money. (10/25/99 9:28 AM): Rob, it's like the difference between changing tires and making tires. Real recruiting and Resume Posting are two distinctly different fields

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:28 AM): Perhaps...but the overriding issue here is BUSINESS...making money is why you're doing it. If you happen to fall into another related way of earning, why not?

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:29 AM): I want to take the money, Rob! I just want to be involved in the actual screening on behalf of the business to save them time (10/25/99 9:29 AM): YOU'RE RIGHT!! I don't want to just make money! You never seem to get that :-) There's more to life than cash!

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:29 AM): I suspect that you realize that by posting "THIS IS NOT A FREE SERIVCE", you'll see a drop in traffic.

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:30 AM): Oh, I get it, JoAnna...but I also get bills for doctors, dentists, groceries, house payments, taxes...

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:31 AM): Terri, I think you can use the REAL prospects to nurture a relationship where you can do both.

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:31 AM): I'm just having a hard time reaching the "right" ears to find homes for these candidates. I just visited a site the other day that submits resumes to a business - and they charge a flat rate for just sending these "pre-selected" candidates - not a fee for the actual placement

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:32 AM): Terri, if you have a real problem, why not simply "assist" the applicants -- use the free services on BEHALF of the applicants. You know your way around the web better than they do... (10/25/99 9:32 AM): that's not the deal, Rob. If you see an ad in the paper, and they give a fax/email contact, it's NO CHARGE for them to send you the resume, it's an expense (of time and energy) for me to receive them... but unless I stop checking my email and turn off the

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:32 AM): It's like registering a domain can do it yourself for $70, or you can pay someone to do it for you for $150.

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:33 AM): My site does do that too Rob. I have links to other sites to help them find work, as well as articles to help them when they go to an interview, etc. (10/25/99 9:33 AM): So I should put an autoreply on my email that says "If you just sent me a resume, I'll send you an invoice for $10 for having to deal with it. "

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:34 AM): No, JoAnna, but your SITE should tell them what to do: fill out the online form and send a check for $X so that you can get started. Then tell them what they can expect.

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:34 AM): From all I have been reading, the future of recruiting on the Net is definitely going to be different than traditional recruiting. Maybe that is part of my problem... I haven't made the right transition in my way of thinking :)

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:35 AM): Think about it. If you guys became their personal "job-seekers", you'd do all the legwork and get paid -- up front -- for it.

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:35 AM): All they do is check their e-mail everyday to see what you've found them.....

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:36 AM): To tell you the truth, that is what I have been doing - for FREE ! lol

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:36 AM): Just because the online search services are advertising how to use their services doesn't mean that people understand -- or want -- to use them. There's a knowledge gap there. (10/25/99 9:36 AM): Terri, I believe that recruiting might change due to the new media of the net but the basic business principles will not change. Businesses hire for specific objectives not because of the media they are posted on.

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:38 AM): Terri, you can charge because you offer personal attention, whereas everyone else is just "submit and pray"

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:38 AM): Jozef, the business principles won't change - but it does need a different approach than what I am using right now, I believe (10/25/99 9:38 AM): The power of using the net, or your web site is that you can create an arrangement of spectacular customer service.

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:38 AM): If you both want a great model to follow, consider the Virtual Assistants, which I think is going to be huge...

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:39 AM): Jozef is right -- you need to realize that there's a whole huge segment of people who have online access, but not the expertise in using it. (10/25/99 9:39 AM): Rob, do you believe in passion? I have no passion for dealing with anonymous resumes. My passion lies in making employees love their companies.

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:39 AM): That's a very good point, Rob. I am offering personal service now - but I think I may be offering it to the wrong people, based on who is responding *grin* (10/25/99 9:39 AM): I'd never do a good job at the other stuff, because I don't really care enough about it. (10/25/99 9:40 AM): For example, I have suggested to another Frankel bee that they attached their resumes to a automatic background checker. A database of licensing or professional review.

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:40 AM): Jozef, I have been making my site with the intent of excellent customer service - take a look if you get a chance :)

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:40 AM): JoAnna, I not only believe in passion, I AM passion! I'm Mr. Passion! Do you think that millions of people wake up every day and say, "Gee, I think I'll go to the store and buy some brand consulting?" (10/25/99 9:41 AM): When resumes come into the job site for exec's to review, they are first filtered through a background check database.

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:41 AM): Jozef, do you think that is the thing exec's look at first? the background?

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:41 AM): Terri/JoAnna, the key to your businesses is bridging the gap between cold, automated sites and totally human sources. (10/25/99 9:42 AM): Devil's Advocate Alert: OK, Mr. Passion, what if I told you that you should be writing grocery story ads because it's more lucrative??

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:43 AM): So, Rob, my "product" could be posting the resume on the site for $10 and $150 to hire me as their personal job search person? (10/25/99 9:43 AM): Terri, I will Look. BTW, I have a road map that takes you from your business plans to your online business solution. If you are interested.

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:43 AM): Well, JoAnna, I'll answer it like this: Last week, two clients walked in the door asking for package design. I took the jobs -- they paid great and why not? It's a brand-related function.

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:44 AM): Terri, it's my belief that nobody takes you seriously until you make them bleed a little. I don't do free meetings anymore for that reason.

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:44 AM): I would be interested in learning more about how you do it, Jozef :) (10/25/99 9:44 AM): Terri, Exec's look for a number of things, but background checks are a fundamental. It is quite frustrating to spend time with a candidate when they fail checks later. (10/25/99 9:45 AM): I think you think that recruiting and HR are one in the same. but they're not. they're related, but very different. ...(more

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:45 AM): I'd start with a low fee like that, and then charge a schedule to keep the service continuously working and reporting. (10/25/99 9:45 AM): Entered the room. (10/25/99 9:45 AM): I'd venture to say that Terri, an expert at placement, wouldn't jump on an employee handbook proposition... (10/25/99 9:46 AM): Terri, an excellent book to read is by Patricia Seybold.

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:46 AM): No, I'm not confusing them. But we're talking about what to do with business that just happens to float your way. At first, you ignore it, but if lots of it is floating by, it deserves another look.

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:46 AM): How would you do the schedule, Rob? If I find them a job right away, they wouldn't need further reporting would they? (10/25/99 9:46 AM): It explains how to provide excellent customer service, and how to become a customer focused organization.

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:47 AM): No I wouldn't want an employee handbook assignment, but I would refer them to someone I know

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:47 AM): No, Terri, but if you charge them $49 a month (let's say) and they get a job in one month, don't you think that you'll get great word of mouth and referrals?

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:48 AM): I have read some of her stuff, Jozef - she is very good. I have also read Richard Whitely's book on customer driven companies and learned a lot there!

JoAnna (10/25/99 9:48 AM): Entered the room. (10/25/99 9:48 AM): Terri, the place to start is to look at your existing customers. How can you price until you have looked at your business from a strategic point of view.

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:48 AM): Even at $100 a month, if you're working on 25 people, that's $2500 a month just for managing the web searches for them.

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:49 AM): Absolutely, Rob! And I am getting some good word of mouth already, simply because of the fact that I am empathetic and respond to their inquiries immediately - something that bigger companies haven't done for them

JoAnna (10/25/99 9:49 AM): I crashed... I think it was because of Rob's excellent analogy Floating... other things float too :-) (10/25/99 9:49 AM): Did you read the section on doing a profit and loss on each customer?

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:49 AM): JoAnna, HR is a wholly different challenge, That whole category is moving at the speed of light. In fact, as the category grows, the number of HR positions has declined by something like 50% or more. (10/25/99 9:50 AM): Finding out how to capture more of your most profitable customers.

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:50 AM): No I didn't Jozef - I will go back and read that :)

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:50 AM): Exactly, Terri! And THAT'S the value they'll pay for.

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:50 AM): (TEN MINUTE WARNING)

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:51 AM): Thanks Rob! You've given me a totally new direction to investigate - and one that I am already having success with!

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:51 AM): Incidentally, Terri, it brings new value to your URL/brand.

JoAnna (10/25/99 9:52 AM): Why do I feel like saying "Okay, Rob, I'm going to take your advice, and alter my recruiting page... but I'm not going to like it!"

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:52 AM): A friend of mine recently told me that in order to get the business to contact me, I have to be known as THE person who has all the sales guys; (10/25/99 9:53 AM): Terri, e-mail me. I have some ideas for you. Note that customer service on your web site will drive more qualified leads to your business than any search engine in the world.

Guy R Cook - (10/25/99 9:53 AM): Entered the room.

JoAnna (10/25/99 9:53 AM): ding ding ding! Terri, You got it! That's another reason I don't want to spread myself too thin!

JoAnna (10/25/99 9:54 AM): (hi, guy!)

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:54 AM): Thanks Jozef - I will do that!

JoAnna (10/25/99 9:54 AM): I'm constantly getting requests for (free) seminars on how to write resumes and do job searches

Guy R Cook - (10/25/99 9:54 AM): (sorry I'm late) (10/25/99 9:54 AM): Customer service excellence works really well when you have a large customer base to work with.

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:55 AM): JoAnna, that would make me think there was a market for a paid seminar as well :)

JoAnna (10/25/99 9:55 AM): If I do that, I'm afraid I'd be considered the source for THAT, not what I really do, which is HR consulting!

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:55 AM): NOBODY should work for free. I only do free speaking as a favor. Everyone else pays. (10/25/99 9:55 AM): Giving seminars is a business in it self.

Guy R Cook - (10/25/99 9:56 AM): Jozef: Do you outsource customer service to have 24/7 support?

JoAnna (10/25/99 9:56 AM): which is yet another reason I don't want to do those classes.... (10/25/99 9:56 AM): Hey Rob, I am seriously considering the Hawaii conference. Looks very interesting and a lot of fun. (10/25/99 9:57 AM): Guy: please elaborate more.

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:57 AM): Jozef, if you want a vacation/write-off, I think it will be worth your while. (10/25/99 9:57 AM): Rob, I know, thinking of bringing the family too for a about ten days.

JoAnna (10/25/99 9:58 AM): Practically anyone can tell you how to write a resume, and how to find a job.... and it doesn't work

JoAnna (10/25/99 9:58 AM): ... and that's why people like Terri can make a fortune doing what she's doing (10/25/99 9:58 AM): rob, I am Canadian so the write off is huge.

Guy R Cook - (10/25/99 9:58 AM): Jozef: you said if you have a large customer base, service is important. I wondered if you have it "in house" or if you sub contract it to a service.

Terri ( (10/25/99 9:58 AM): JoAnna, if you gave one paid seminar a month on how to write resumes/do job searches, don't you think the word of mouth might bring you more of the HR biz you DO want?

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:58 AM): This year's conference will be just big enough to be intimate/productive.

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:59 AM): If you do, go to (10/25/99 9:59 AM): Seminars, lectures, speaking is a way to establish recognition, authority and gain new clients.

JoAnna (10/25/99 9:59 AM): No, I don't because it's two different audiences!!!!!

Guy R Cook - (10/25/99 9:59 AM): Rob, why Hawaii? Would a closer location bring more folks?

RobFrankel (10/25/99 9:59 AM): It's the URL that tracks the people from me.....

RobFrankel (10/25/99 10:00 AM): houbsc is right. Speaking is great way to build.

JoAnna (10/25/99 10:00 AM): It's selling to the employEE, when what I want to do is sell to the employER.

JoAnna (10/25/99 10:00 AM): employers don't need resume services.

RobFrankel (10/25/99 10:00 AM): It's not my conference, it's Thom Reece's and he's in Hawaii. Also, a lot of Aussies and Japanese will be there. Good contacts. (10/25/99 10:00 AM): Oh, Guy actually, customer service is usually important whatever the size of your customer base. Also, whether you outsource is a resource decision to be made that should be congruent with your corporate goals and objectives.

Terri ( (10/25/99 10:01 AM): I agree it is two different audiences, JoAnna - just like the business looking for a candidate is different than the employee wanting to find work. But if I have all the candidates, SOMEONE is going to notice from the business, don't you think?

JoAnna (10/25/99 10:01 AM): employees don't need employee handbooks and such

RobFrankel (10/25/99 10:01 AM): Hey, guys, I gotta split. See you online! (10/25/99 10:02 AM): a colleague once suggested to me that the employee placed in the right position becomes the employer (10/25/99 10:02 AM): Guy, I would outsource after reviewing in house and out side skill sets and costs, etc., It is really just a business case.

Terri ( (10/25/99 10:02 AM): Thanks for all the great ideas, Rob! See you next week :)

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