Transcript of Frankel's Free Clinic November 9, 1998

RobFrankel (11/9/98 8:59 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 8:59 AM): Good morning...

Dave (11/9/98 9:00 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:01 AM): So far Dave, it's just you and me. But don't worry, more people show up. What's on your mind today?

Louise the SoapLady (11/9/98 9:02 AM): Entered the room.

Dave (11/9/98 9:02 AM): Hi, Could you tell me what are the general subject

Dave (11/9/98 9:02 AM): of this group

Louise the SoapLady (11/9/98 9:02 AM): Good Morning everyone

Louise the SoapLady (11/9/98 9:03 AM): so Rob I am almost finished with redoing the site

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:03 AM): Dave, you can bring up anything that has to do with your business or how you want/need to improve it. You might even find people here today with whom you can do a deal...

Louise the SoapLady (11/9/98 9:03 AM): so Rob I am almost finished with redoing the site

Ira Pasternack (11/9/98 9:03 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:04 AM): Great, Louise, when is it up for viewing?

Dave (11/9/98 9:04 AM): I am concerned about choosing an ad broker. i.e. knowing how to choose.

Louise the SoapLady (11/9/98 9:05 AM): soon, another couple of days.. I am still working out the cart script

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:05 AM): You have good reason to be concerned, Dave. What's your main business?

Nancy Lee (11/9/98 9:05 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:06 AM): Greetings, Nancy...

Nancy Lee (11/9/98 9:06 AM): Hi, Rob... been wanting to check in to your chat..

Muhammad (11/9/98 9:06 AM): What are you looking for in an ad broker?

Joe O'Neill (11/9/98 9:06 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:07 AM): Dave, there's a lot of discussion going on about ad brokers. Personally, I'm drawn to the pay per sale guys.

Muhammad (11/9/98 9:08 AM): I agree with Rob & don't give one broker and exclusive,

Joe O'Neill (11/9/98 9:08 AM): Yeah! Because Rob, that is exactly what I am looking for, pay per sale ads for a product I promote.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:09 AM): Greetings Joe. Jump right on in...we have an hour to discuss everyone's business issues.

Dave (11/9/98 9:09 AM): My web site is . I have over 7000 poems on line that have been submitted by web visitors. My business is site advertising , in the future selling poems (with a royalty to the poet) in the form of paper, books, and books. Also I plan to have "LovingPurchases" and more.

Muhammad (11/9/98 9:09 AM): unless they can guarantee you won't have unsold ad space. Beware extraordinarily large commissions also.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:09 AM): Dave, what business are you in? The answer depends on your answer to that question....

Joe O'Neill (11/9/98 9:10 AM): Do you know of anyone or ones who do a)radio ads of this type, and b) National magazines, Parade Magazine in particular?

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:10 AM): Okay, the general rule of thumb (for me) is that unless you are an extremely high volume high traffic site, you can't deliver on a pay per click schedule.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:11 AM): Joe, have you been to the Frankel & Anderson page? You can download all kinds of radio, print and TV samples (

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:11 AM): Oops...misspelled:

Muhammad (11/9/98 9:12 AM): If I may chime in, why pay for click if you don't have to. From a publisher's perspective it's not necessarily worth it.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:12 AM): Dave, Muhammad is correct. Clients want to know that a click from your site will result in a sale, not jus exposure.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:13 AM): Joe, what are you looking at radio and print ads for? What kind of business?

Dave (11/9/98 9:14 AM): I presently have ad-venture as my ad broker. The equivalent CPM for ads that are paid by click through is $0.47, $0.91, $0.19, $0.48

Muhammad (11/9/98 9:14 AM): Exactly, you can't guarantee a sale so why bother? You'll probably make more $ just delivering impressions anyway.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:15 AM): By the way, if you're looking for a great buying service, try posting to the FrankelBiz list. We have all kinds of buyers and planners...and you know you can feel free to ask for a great rate...

Joe O'Neill (11/9/98 9:15 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:16 AM): If you can't find him, I will be happy to introduce you to a few. Just e-mail me at

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:16 AM): Sooo, Nancy Lee, what's your deal today????

Nancy Lee (11/9/98 9:16 AM): Yea, Rob, your list has really taken off this past year.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:17 AM): BTW Joe, if you're looking for really cheap radio -- and usually bad production, but free -- you can often have the radio station write and produce the radio spot for you. It sucks, but it is free...when you buy air time on their stations..

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:18 AM): Yes, Nancy, we have exploded. And we're less than one year old. I'll be announcing more major league developments for us all in the next few months.

Joe O'Neill (11/9/98 9:19 AM): AOL pops me offline from time to time - I'm back. Rob, I am marketing a 2,000 year old coin commonly known as the Widow's Mite, mentioned twice in the Bible. I am looking at all means of distribution, catalog sales, radio ads - what I had in mind was radio ads where the station took a portion of the revenue, in lieu of me buying air time.

Dave (11/9/98 9:19 AM): I presently have ad-venture as my ad broker. The equivalent CPM for ads that are paid by click through is $0.47, $0.91, $0.19, $0.48

Nancy Lee (11/9/98 9:19 AM): trying to work toward developing online food community through info marketing -- booklets, products with y2k focus. So, I was going to ask you guys about general level of awareness and willingness to face possible severe y2k scenarios. Do you think everyone is still in denial?

Joe O'Neill (11/9/98 9:20 AM): Plus, last week one of YOUR listserv subscribers responded to an email from me and is now carrying it on your site, for a portion of profits.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:20 AM): Nancy, everyone is definitely in denial, but I personally think they have a right to be. This is a media sensationalism thing. No doubt it's serious, but I wouldn't be hoarding food over it.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:21 AM): Yeah, Joe! Way to go buddy!

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:21 AM): Joe, how much is the coin selling for?

Joe O'Neill (11/9/98 9:22 AM): Her site, -Thank you, Rob! Retail is $49.95, with a leather look portfolio, and the history of the coin and both quotes from the Bible inside on parchment paper.

Muhammad (11/9/98 9:22 AM): People get paranoid about the Internet in general, they're all scared some hacker will take over the world

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:23 AM): Joe, I would seriously consider narrowing your market to the religious channels. And don't be afraid of TV... you can get a :30 spot on TV for $50 per spot.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:24 AM): Joe, I kid you not: Pay a few buck to produce a :30 video and sell it direct over TV on the religious channels and watch them fly out the door. Don't waste your time on the general public.

Joe O'Neill (11/9/98 9:24 AM): Also, that same week I sent out press releases to religious radio stations all over the country - I got one response and am in negotiations to get something going with a station in upstate New York.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:25 AM): Joe, how many of them do you have in stock?

Joe O'Neill (11/9/98 9:25 AM): The price for the TV time sounds good - but what about to produce a TV commercial?

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:25 AM): You can do it down and dirty for about $10K to $15K, easy.

Dave (11/9/98 9:26 AM): With reference to my problem... how do I choose a good ad broker. I have demographics of 70% of visitors under 25, 70% female, 75% USA

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:26 AM): There are some TV stations, like Turner (they used to do it, anyway) that will do the whole thing on a PI basis, for no up front money, but they take 30% of every sale and fulfill them.

Joe O'Neill (11/9/98 9:26 AM): I have an arrangement with the company that is my source - they have at least 12,000 of them.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:28 AM): Dave, ad brokers impress me with two characteristics: Smarts and chemistry. I like working with smaller firms, because they're smarter and don't bullshit me as much. I also like working with pay per sale.

Joe O'Neill (11/9/98 9:28 AM): The Turner deal sounds perfect, like a match made in heaven (ooh, pardon the pun!) And giving them 30% is fine, if it takes out the up front costs. If they are doing the fulfillment, do I get the customer names for back end and future promotions?

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:29 AM): The truth is that if an ad broker doesn't see you as a mega-volume monster, they'll toss you into a pre-fab plan that's not right for you. And they'll do it on a pay per click basis. If you're really in business, you want to deliver paying client to you

Michael Kimsal (11/9/98 9:29 AM): Entered the room.

Muhammad (11/9/98 9:30 AM): Rob is correct, Brokers should only get paid for what they sell. No sense paying them to do nothing.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:30 AM): Yes, Joe, you do. But have your lawyer make sure that it's in the agreement.

Michael Kimsal (11/9/98 9:30 AM): Hello! I hate to break in here, but I have some questions about setting up a 'pay per sale' deal for a health/fitness product.

Michael Kimsal (11/9/98 9:31 AM): I don't have too much time to sit here and chat at the moment (meetings!) but if anyone is interested, I'm emailable at

Dave (11/9/98 9:31 AM): I did pay per sale. 1. 1,000,000 impressions = $1.50 ; 2. 750,000 impressions $87.00

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:31 AM): Does anyone here have a broker they want to suggest to Dave? Because I'll say it publicly right now, I like Leo Sheiner a lot. E-mail me for his e-mail address and I'll personally put you in touch. I can't guarantee he'll take you, but I like his style

Michael Kimsal (11/9/98 9:31 AM): Am I breaking netiquette here? :(

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:32 AM): No Michael, but if you only have a minute, what can we do for you today?

Michael Kimsal (11/9/98 9:32 AM): I've looked at Leo Sheiner's safe-audit, but a pay-per-sale deal there would cost too much to set up!

Michael Kimsal (11/9/98 9:33 AM): Fortunately/unfortunately I'm working on straight commission with this myself.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:33 AM): How is it too expensive?

Michael Kimsal (11/9/98 9:33 AM): I've completely revamped a product website, and although it's not GREAT now, it's not as bad as it was. My payment will be a percentage of sales only.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:34 AM): If you're paying for a sale, it should be structured right into your price.

Joe O'Neill (11/9/98 9:34 AM): Entered the room.

Muhammad (11/9/98 9:34 AM): I would avoid pay per click brokers, they already have the client and keep most of the profits. You want a broker to deliver YOU clients.

Michael Kimsal (11/9/98 9:34 AM): It's too expensive in the sense that he recommends a certain level of $ up front. I seem to remember reading there that you need to be prepared to spend $500/month or something like that.

Michael Kimsal (11/9/98 9:34 AM): Did I read it wrong? (Leo's site?)

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:34 AM): Joe, you gotta drop AOL for a REAL ISP!!!!

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:35 AM): You may have, Michael. Besides, you should never let a site make or break a deal. Always talk to the man (or woman) in charge. That's where you get the best deals...

Joe O'Neill (11/9/98 9:35 AM): LOL! Yeah, I know. Dang, I had something I was just about to send something, too. Hmmm, where was I?

Michael Kimsal (11/9/98 9:36 AM): Talking to Leo directly, you mean?

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:36 AM): Michael, if you can't afford $500 a month, Leo is doing you a big favor by saving you money. Anything less (my minimum would be $1000) and you're better off sticking it in a Treasury bill until next year.

Dave (11/9/98 9:37 AM): The advertisers I feel would work on my site would be the advertisers out of "Teen" magazine etc.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:38 AM): Don't be fooled by clicks. Business is business. If you're not a huge click monster, you have t that your site brings paying customers.

Dave (11/9/98 9:38 AM): The question is what brokers handle these advertisers

Michael Kimsal (11/9/98 9:39 AM): Hmmm... I may need to rethink this some... It's basically this client not wanting to spend *anything* to promote it. :(

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:39 AM): I'd rather have 50 paying customers than 5000 non-paying clicks.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:39 AM): I'd rather have 50 paying customers than 5000 non-paying clicks.

Michael Kimsal (11/9/98 9:39 AM): Thanks for your input and I wish I had more time to stay! I only rarely get to these things... Perhaps we could schedule an alternate meeting time (with or without you there, Rob)?

Nancy Lee (11/9/98 9:39 AM): Hmmm, Michael, that

Joe O'Neill (11/9/98 9:40 AM): The Turner deal would be a match made in heaven (pardon the pun!) 30% of profits would be fine (did I post all this already?) The 10 to 15k for producing a commercial knocks me right out of the water - unless I had a joint venture partner. A portion of a whole lot is a whole lot better than 100% of nothing....

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:40 AM): Michael -- and everyone -- listen up: I never take on business with a client who wants stuff for nothing (or very little). That's the first sign that it's bad business. After all, if THEY don't want to put money into their own dream, why should you?

Nancy Lee (11/9/98 9:41 AM): Hmmm, Michael, that seems vaguely familiar..a client not wanting to spend _anything_ on promotion, I mean..:-)

Dave (11/9/98 9:41 AM): Do advertisers require per sale guarantees from magazines?

Muhammad (11/9/98 9:42 AM): I agree wholeheartedly, Beware of clients that want you to risk everything.

Charlie (11/9/98 9:42 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:43 AM): Well, Joe, if you're selling them for $50 and you have 12,000 of them, you only have to sell 300 to break even (gross rev) and ~500 with Turner's 30% for example

Joe O'Neill (11/9/98 9:43 AM): Rob, do you have a contact for Turner Broadcasting? Who do I need to speak to for this to get rolling? And (shaking and quaking) is it too late for the Christmas season?

Muhammad (11/9/98 9:43 AM): Although in the case of cash poor clients, strategic bartering agreements can be reached. They can sometimes be quite useful.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:43 AM): No Dave, print mags charge you for the space and you're on your own.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:44 AM): Joe, if you REALLY burned rubber, you might still do a deal with Turner. But I would approach the CBN and other religious stations first. The phrase you want to use is "PI" as in "per inquiry" basis.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:45 AM): Joe, don't sweat it if you miss Christmas...Easter is within striking distance.

Nancy Lee (11/9/98 9:45 AM): Muhammad, is there much "strategic bartering" going on in this business? examples?

Dave (11/9/98 9:45 AM): Why would this not be applicable for the net. Branding

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:46 AM): Dave, what are you referring to?

Muhammad (11/9/98 9:47 AM): Nancy, I am working with a client right now that needs web page development services, but is low on cash. But he does own valuable ad space, so I am being paid in an equivalent $ amount in advertising.

Joe O'Neill (11/9/98 9:47 AM): Rob, would CBN produce the commercial? See - I don't have the money up front to produce the commercial myself - even though the product and your idea - promote it on TV - is perfect. That's why I don't mind giving up 30%.

Dave (11/9/98 9:47 AM): Why do advertisers demand CTR rather than CPM

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:48 AM): Joe, you gotta call their ad/sales department and ask them if they do P.I. deals.

Muhammad (11/9/98 9:49 AM): Because they want visits to their site, not just Ad views

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:49 AM): Advertisers want to know what's REALLY happening, with real results. Cost per Thousands is a number. Click through rate tells you how effective the ad is at getting people to the site. But both pale in comparison to Pay Per Sale.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:50 AM): (TEN MINUTE WARNING)

Joe O'Neill (11/9/98 9:51 AM): I will be calling - TBS, and is CBN (I'm guessing here) Catholic Broadcasting Network?

Dave (11/9/98 9:51 AM): What you are saying is they want something for free... page impressions

Nancy Lee (11/9/98 9:52 AM): Muhammad, when you say valuable ad space, I assume you mean high site traffic. What, IYHO is a minimum traffic range to qualify for marketable ad space?

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:53 AM): CBN is the Christian Broadcasting Network. I would also call The Family Channel (owned by Pat Robertson) and TNN, too. No kidding, check your cable TV guide, skip through the channels. You'll be able to pick up the religious-oriented stuff pretty easily

Muhammad (11/9/98 9:53 AM): Actually the client has a opt-in mailing list he sells ads in, that reaches 75,000+ subscribers daily.

Dave (11/9/98 9:54 AM): 1,000,000 impressions for $1.50 is something for nothing in my book

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:54 AM): Joe, if you want to market online, have you tried the Christian web sites? I believe that there's a huge one called Christian Connection. You're not too late for them, I'd bet....

Muhammad (11/9/98 9:56 AM): As far as marketable web site ad space, it depends. It depends on your audience and the number of impressions. I would say 100,000+ impressions a month could be called valuable.

Nancy Lee (11/9/98 9:57 AM): Muhammad. O

Muhammad (11/9/98 9:57 AM): Dave, please don't tell me you got $1.50 for 1,000,000 ad showings on your site.

RobFrankel (11/9/98 9:58 AM): (TWO MINUTES)

Nancy Lee (11/9/98 9:58 AM): Muhammad, I

Joe O'Neill (11/9/98 9:58 AM): Entered the room.

Dave (11/9/98 9:58 AM): I had 300,000 per month for 3 months and got $1.50. Actually it's worse I'll never get the %1.50.

Muhammad (11/9/98 10:00 AM): You should charge for impressions not clicks, you shouldn't lose money because they have bad banners or no one wants their product.

Nancy Lee (11/9/98 10:00 AM): Muhammed, sorry -- would you email me want to ask you a couple of things..

Joe O'Neill (11/9/98 10:00 AM): Rob, I'm in awe. This shows the power of masterminding in action - Christian Connection? Finding more websites, and the religious sites, was part of the plan, but, I wanted sites with a following and traffic, as opposed to sites that get 12 visitors per week.

Dave (11/9/98 10:00 AM): this was Barnes and Noble

RobFrankel (11/9/98 10:00 AM): Okay, you guys, I've gotta run. But you are most welcome to continue as long as you want. You can also use this site to meet any time you like during the week. See you online!

Muhammad (11/9/98 10:01 AM): Nancy, No problem.

Muhammad (11/9/98 10:01 AM): C-ya Rob, This is a great forum!!

Joe O'Neill (11/9/98 10:01 AM): I'll be checking Christian Connection out. Thank you, thank you, Rob!

Nancy Lee (11/9/98 10:01 AM): Thanks, Rob -- you're doing great work -- you dictator, you! :-)

Dave (11/9/98 10:02 AM): bye rob

RobFrankel (11/9/98 10:03 AM): Hey, you're making me blush...

Joe O'Neill (11/9/98 10:03 AM): Whooo! Talk about great ideas... does Rob provide archives of these chats on his site?

Dave (11/9/98 10:04 AM): I'm printing out as we go for my reference

Dave (11/9/98 10:04 AM): I'm printing out as we go for my reference

Dave (11/9/98 10:05 AM): is Muhammad still here?

Muhammad (11/9/98 10:05 AM): Yes He Is

Dave (11/9/98 10:07 AM): Did you state that CPS is better than CPM?

Muhammad (11/9/98 10:09 AM): No, I think that from a web page publishers perspective it is better to charge on a CPM basis not, per click or sale. But if you are the person buying the ad space, you would want cost per sale.

Nancy Lee (11/9/98 10:09 AM): Have to go, guys. See ya..

Muhammad (11/9/98 10:10 AM): Bye Nancy,

Dave (11/9/98 10:10 AM): I know but that is ignoring the value of the impressions. The advertiser is stealing

Muhammad (11/9/98 10:10 AM): By Nancy, Send you and E-mail.

Dave (11/9/98 10:11 AM): By Nancy

Muhammad (11/9/98 10:12 AM): Exactly, If the advertiser only gets I sale per/4,000 impressions. He hasn't paid for the other 3,999. Those impressions hold value regardless of the number of sales. Because they are branding his product.

Dave (11/9/98 10:14 AM): Cost per sale is also unfair at any rate that any advertiser would even think about. The advertiser gets a customer, possibly for life, and the site gets a $1.00

Dave (11/9/98 10:16 AM): I gotta go. Thanks. If you want to e-mail me its

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