Transcript of Frankel's Free Clinic November 1, 1999

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:01 AM): Greetings! Looks like we're early!

Guy R Cook - (11/1/99 9:01 AM): Entered the room.

Glenda (11/1/99 9:01 AM): Hello Rob

Glenda (11/1/99 9:01 AM): Hello Guy

Terri ( (11/1/99 9:01 AM): Entered the room.

Guy R Cook - (11/1/99 9:01 AM): Greetings from Washington state, not

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:01 AM): Or everyone else is late! HI Glenda, Guy....Terri!

Glenda (11/1/99 9:01 AM): Hello Terri

Terri ( (11/1/99 9:02 AM): Hi Rob, Glenda and Guy! this time change confuses me! *g*

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:02 AM): Yes, Guy, I just returned from Whistler, BC, where it was snowing....

Dorothy (11/1/99 9:02 AM): Entered the room.

Terri ( (11/1/99 9:02 AM): good morning, Dorothy!

Glenda (11/1/99 9:03 AM): Hi Dorothy

Crawford (11/1/99 9:03 AM): Did you ski blackcomb also?

Andy TeBockhorst ( (11/1/99 9:03 AM): Entered the room.

Dorothy (11/1/99 9:03 AM): Hi all!

Guy R Cook - (11/1/99 9:03 AM): Let Crawford go first, been here for 30 minutes waiting.

Terri ( (11/1/99 9:03 AM): Rob, I took your advice on offering something to my candidate market!

Andy TeBockhorst ( (11/1/99 9:03 AM): Morning gang! Good news... I finally got an offer on my house!

Glenda (11/1/99 9:03 AM): Hi Andy

Terri ( (11/1/99 9:04 AM): hurray, Andy!! I'm sure that is a relief for you!

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:04 AM): Crawford, are you here? If so, go for it!

Andy TeBockhorst ( (11/1/99 9:04 AM): you bet! morning Glenda :)

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:04 AM): Crawford, I didn't ski at was a two day speaking/consulting gig...

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:05 AM): But if ya gotta work, that's a damn fine place to do it

Crawford (11/1/99 9:05 AM): Rob, I am running an add in a University paper. What do you think of running a contest along with it to promote my site?

Andy TeBockhorst ( (11/1/99 9:05 AM): It's a great relief, plus I can finally use my URL ( for my freelance work!

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:06 AM): It depends on what you're trying to achieve, Crawford. Can you give more details?

Crawford (11/1/99 9:06 AM): How in the world could you go to one best places in the world.... next to Calgary of course and not ski?

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:07 AM): Ummm...because I have a family to support?

Crawford (11/1/99 9:07 AM): I'm just trying to get people to visit "traffic!" (11/1/99 9:07 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:07 AM): What kind of site is it Crawford/

Crawford (11/1/99 9:08 AM): Jewelry.. funky university stuff (11/1/99 9:08 AM): Crawford, what kind of traffic are you looking for (11/1/99 9:09 AM): What is your audience? Students?

Guy R Cook - (11/1/99 9:09 AM): Tip: Post your contest on, they have lots of traffic, have had many entries for various contests posted there.

Jacob (11/1/99 9:09 AM): Entered the room.

Crawford (11/1/99 9:10 AM): Well I guess we all want just the people that will buy but I kind of see it like being in a mall where there is people that browse, Some become buyers. The more browsers, the better.

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:10 AM): So far, Crawford, I don't see anything that limits you to one university...

Clayton T( (11/1/99 9:11 AM): Entered the room. (11/1/99 9:11 AM): Can you segment your customers between high, medium and low volume.

Crawford (11/1/99 9:11 AM): Adds are in the newspapers and the are expensive. Right now just trying to get the biggest bang for the $

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:11 AM): Crawford, let me rant on a bit here...first, why don't I see any pieces on the first page? Did you know that 80% of all people never drill past the first page?

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:12 AM): Second, malls are death. I don't care what anyone tells you, malls are death. They take your money and you get lost among the masses.

Crawford (11/1/99 9:13 AM): Go ahead and rant..and know I didn't.

Meg Rottman (StylePR) (11/1/99 9:13 AM): Entered the room.

Crawford (11/1/99 9:13 AM): Not actually in any malls, just stand alone.

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:13 AM): Third, if you don't have a lot of money to spend on ads, spending in print is probably NOT your best bet. Offline ads especially require a LOT of frequency and reach. Lots of people have to see them many times. So you need $ and staying power. (11/1/99 9:13 AM): Crawford, the best way to get them deeper into your site is to offer customer service sections, unique ones.

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:14 AM): Guy's suggestion is a good one: you don't have the resources to convince offliners to visit, so go after those who are already online.

Crawford (11/1/99 9:14 AM): My biggest problem like the rest of the world is hit.. I need more from the right people. I change my 1st page.

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:15 AM): Jozef is also correct, following Frankel's First Law of WEb Branding: The more you niche, the better you do.

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:16 AM): No Crawford, you DON'T need more hits. You need more qualified buyers. You DON'T need volume, you need buyers. (11/1/99 9:16 AM): Also, push yourself away from the computer for a few minutes and think about the NEEDS of each customer segment and then go after it like a fiend.

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:16 AM): That' the first thing you need to accept. Yours is not an advertising revenue site, you're selling stuff. You have to pursue people who will buy your stuff.

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:17 AM): Jozef, you're my hero, bud.

Crawford (11/1/99 9:17 AM): I am for sure in a niche market.. Most of my customers have wants. very few have needs.

Dorothy (11/1/99 9:18 AM): Not to be negative here... The page is built on a FrontPage style sheet that I've seen numerous times. Is that a problem?

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:18 AM): So Crawford, you've got to start getting awareness where your prospective buyers are at. Where do they hang out online? With whom can you ally yourself? Do promotional trade deals?

Meg Rottman (StylePR) (11/1/99 9:18 AM): Building a brand...promoting a we know, is a full time job and essential to the growth of your company.

Terri ( (11/1/99 9:18 AM): Jozef is my hero too, Rob - his Road Map for business he shared with me after last week's chat was brilliant! :)

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:18 AM): Fortunately for you, Crawford, most people confuse wants with needs.... (11/1/99 9:18 AM): I know this stuff is common sense but it is really well outlined in Patricia Seybold's book ""

Meg Rottman (StylePR) (11/1/99 9:18 AM): Hi Rob (and thanks for the referral!!!)

Crawford (11/1/99 9:19 AM): I'm not sure I follow you on the advertising rev part

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:19 AM): Crawford, I look at your site and wonder, "what does this guy have I can't get anywhere else?"

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:19 AM): Not that you aren't offering valuable stuff, but you aren't letting me know what it is and why I should dig deeper.

Crawford (11/1/99 9:20 AM): Good point.

Crawford (11/1/99 9:20 AM): Any suggestions. (11/1/99 9:20 AM): Crawford, would you also like the "Road Map" it takes you from your Strategic (11/1/99 9:20 AM): Crawford, would you also like the "Road Map" it takes you from your Strategic (11/1/99 9:20 AM): Crawford, would you also like the "Road Map" it takes you from your Strategic (11/1/99 9:20 AM): Crawford, would you also like the "Road Map" it takes you from your Strategic

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:20 AM): Crawford, only sites that sell advertising care about their number of visitors, because that's what they use to sell advertising on their sites. You're not in that business, so you shouldn't care about number of visitors. (11/1/99 9:20 AM): Sorry folks

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:21 AM): Meg -- glad to help. Those guys are coming here for a meeting right after this session. (11/1/99 9:21 AM): It takes you from your strategic plan to your online business solution

Crawford (11/1/99 9:21 AM): The "road map" is a book?

Meg Rottman (StylePR) (11/1/99 9:22 AM): Rob--I'm meeting with them on Tuesday (11/1/99 9:22 AM): No it is a conceptual framework that I have developed

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:22 AM): So Crawford, when I hit your page, I want to say, "AHA! THIS is just what I was looking for!" Because that's how the web works -- people searching for solutions to their own wants and needs.

Glenda (11/1/99 9:23 AM): I'd be interested in viewing your roadmap Jozef

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:23 AM): Meg, it is likely that I will not be working them...mainly because I just signed a year contract with a possible conflict. But I said I'd meet with them, so... (11/1/99 9:23 AM): Glenda, just send me an e-mail, ok.

Glenda (11/1/99 9:24 AM): I will...thanks Jozef

Clayton T( (11/1/99 9:24 AM): I think you should put it to the list Jozef, it would surely be a hit:)

Crawford (11/1/99 9:24 AM): I have thought of trying to put something on the 1st page but would it be the actual jewelry pic of people wearing (closeups) is the question (11/1/99 9:25 AM): Also, I plan to be at E-commerce 2000, I will do specific Road Maps for only $150 U.S.

Meg Rottman (StylePR) (11/1/99 9:25 AM): Rob - I'd like to call you after your meeting. Will you be available?

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:25 AM): Yes, and Crawford, if you're not on FrankelBiz, you should enlist the aid of the FrankelBees. They are a fabulous resource.

Crawford (11/1/99 9:25 AM): I am. (11/1/99 9:25 AM): That is a Road Map "Tailored" just for your business.

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:25 AM): Yes, Meg. If I don't answer, leave VM...I'm in meetings a lot today. (11/1/99 9:26 AM): Typically I charge $2,000 for financial institutions to do a tailored road map

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:26 AM): Crawford, I know several people on the list have sites with whom you could do very good deals. Dave Doggett, for example, has a love poetry site that gets tons of traffic from mostly women.

Clayton T( (11/1/99 9:27 AM): I'd like to see the Generic road map if that's possible

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:27 AM): Also, JC at cybercards does well with advertisers, too. And both should give you a good rate...Talk to them. (11/1/99 9:27 AM): I will send anyone who asks a basic outline of the road map for free, but specific ones I charge for.

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:28 AM): Or better still, post a NEED to the list, telling them about your site. You'll get tons of responses and offers. (11/1/99 9:28 AM): Clayton, just send me an e-mail request and I will send it to you.

Crawford (11/1/99 9:28 AM): I think I would like that. Can I get there urls?

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:29 AM): and the hyphenated versions of those, too....

Clayton T( (11/1/99 9:30 AM): ok, thanks

Guy R Cook - (11/1/99 9:30 AM): Jozef: Just emailed my request for sample of your Road Map

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:31 AM): There you go...More FrankelBiz connections! Jozef is working the room! (11/1/99 9:32 AM): Hey, I want to work Hawaii, I will be there folks!

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:32 AM): Jozef -- how many people think you work for Hewlett-Packard?

Guy R Cook - (11/1/99 9:32 AM): Thanks Rob, I was too shy to ask myself that same question (11/1/99 9:32 AM): Usually they ask, how much hp stock do you have, lol.

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:33 AM): Thanks for reminding me...check out for details on the E-Commerce 2000 Conference in Hawaii! (11/1/99 9:33 AM): Rob, its all about branding, just like you say.

Dorothy (11/1/99 9:33 AM): Sent mine also... and thanks in advance. Rob, you ignored my question about using known styles (FrontPage) for page design.

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:33 AM): Guy, you know me by now...never too shy!

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:33 AM): Sorry, Dorothy, didn't see it go by. Can you ask it again? (11/1/99 9:34 AM): I am taking the family, there is a deal from Vancouver for $479 CDN and kids fly for $1!!!

Glenda (11/1/99 9:34 AM): Speaking of building traffic for an ad revenue site...can anyone give suggestions on how to do this for a city guide?

Crawford (11/1/99 9:34 AM): It sure is great that no one else has many questions...... (11/1/99 9:34 AM): That's just the air, and that's about $300 U.S.

Dorothy (11/1/99 9:35 AM): I'd just pointed out that I recognize Clayton's page as style sheets developed by MS for FrontPage.

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:35 AM): Dorothy, you go girl...You're up.

Guy R Cook - (11/1/99 9:35 AM): Crawford's page needs a new background color below the background image me thinks, the yellow is a bit intense

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:35 AM): And?

Crawford (11/1/99 9:36 AM): It sure is great that no one else has many questions...... (11/1/99 9:36 AM): Hey, forget about Front Page, we can make your pages client updateable so that you update your site from your web site. It's called client updateable web sites. (11/1/99 9:37 AM): You don't need to know html to update your site.

Dorothy (11/1/99 9:37 AM): It is a turn off to me to see sites that take the easy road of using "generic" packages for design. Same problem with PowerPoint. Maybe it's just me?

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:37 AM): Look, I have no problem with home-made sites or layout templates. I just want them to work. Too many people don't use the right tools, though.

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:38 AM): Actually, Dorothy, you bring up a good point: the problem with templates is that they do indeed make everyone look like everyone else, which as you know, is an anathema to branding. (11/1/99 9:38 AM): Right Rob, that is why we take a Strategic Planning approach to web site development.

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:39 AM): Even in my PowerPoint presentation last Friday, EVERYONE else did blue backgrounds with white text. Mine were white background with black text. (11/1/99 9:39 AM): The Road Map really helps here. It gets you thinking about customer service, administration, operations, and not just marketing.

Dorothy (11/1/99 9:39 AM): So which AE the "right" tools?... you know my bias, I think.

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:40 AM): I wrote an article years about this, only it had to do with desktop publishing. Everyone was firing their ad agencies because they thought software replaced them.

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:40 AM): Jozef, you're selling too hard, pal. (11/1/99 9:41 AM): Hey, with client updateable web sites you don't need any tools at all.

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:41 AM): The point of the article was "Just because you own a Stradivarius doesn't mean you can play the violin". Same with Front Page and power Point. The talent isn't included in the box.

Terri ( (11/1/99 9:41 AM): Rob, too many website owners/designers forget a very important thing about their visitors - they forget to make it easy for the visitor to get where they WANT them to go, and then make it hard for them to navigate around the site.

Clayton T( (11/1/99 9:42 AM): That Power point scheme is a bit over used, I see that all the time!

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:42 AM): I predict you'll see a lot of first-timers eventually use pro's -- just like many DIY'ers who own Quark and Photoshop no longer do their own ads. Because they can't write effective ads, no matter how good the layout software is.

Guy R Cook - (11/1/99 9:42 AM): Terri is right, complex sites have to have a help page or site map or both for me to bookmark them as being a good resource.

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:43 AM): Correct: Apple's philosophy makes sense to me: you shouldn't ever have to open the manual. Same with a web site.

Glenda (11/1/99 9:44 AM): I can't tell you how many times I've hit a homepage and starred at it for minutes trying to figure out what to do

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:44 AM): It really does come down to branding again...if your stuff looks like everyone else's, everyone will think it's no different than anyone else's. Why should they?

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:44 AM): BTW, anyone else have any hardcore marketing/branding issues/

Meg Rottman (StylePR) (11/1/99 9:45 AM): Rob--any great classes/books we should be reading/taking to educate us on e-marketing?

Dorothy (11/1/99 9:46 AM): I should fess up that I'm a host on the Adobe User 2 User forums. There are a lot of folks that not only can't design... They also quickly find that there's a learning curve involved in using the tools.

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:47 AM): No books that I know of that are instructional, Meg. But I have seen a lot happen at seminars and gatherings. The Internet Professionals Organization, AIP and others are great. They meet monthly and weekly. (11/1/99 9:47 AM): Meg, read, "Unleashing the Killer App" by Downes and Hui. Digital strategies for market dominance.

Crawford (11/1/99 9:47 AM): Ok.. What do you that a great logo should involve? That might be a big question..

Guy R Cook - (11/1/99 9:47 AM): Meg, an older book I like is Strategic Internet Marketing by Tom Vassos (11/1/99 9:47 AM): The 1st digital strategy they mention is "Outsource to the customer"

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:48 AM): The best advice I'm giving out these days is this: Don't believe ANYONE. I'm seeing so many opportunists taking advantage of this exploding market and few -- if any -- know what they're talking about.

Clayton T( (11/1/99 9:48 AM): Gotta go - See y'all next week! (11/1/99 9:48 AM): Take care Clayton.

Meg Rottman (StylePR) (11/1/99 9:48 AM): Thanks Rob & Guy

Glenda (11/1/99 9:48 AM): That's true too Rob...everyone is a self-proclaimed guru

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:49 AM): Crawford, the logo should be based on your brand strategy, and executed as a piece of fine art. Something that people really would appreciate on a promotional item, like a shirt or cap.

Terri ( (11/1/99 9:49 AM): Amen to that, Rob! (11/1/99 9:50 AM): Right Rob, too many clients I see have web designers come in and TELL them what their site should look like rather than LISTEN and find out about the client's business.

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:50 AM): Well, Glenda, I think you should hear what people have to say and then weigh it for your own needs. You should see the pirates out there...willing to take your money for anything.

Meg Rottman (StylePR) (11/1/99 9:50 AM): I'm sure it comes down to vision, hard work and creativity -- and the Internet is just a tool for those who already have those talents.

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:50 AM): (TEN MINUTE WARNING)

Meg Rottman (StylePR) (11/1/99 9:50 AM): A logo should "go the distance". You don't want to redo it every 5 years

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:51 AM): Meg, people forget that the web is an extremely visual, RGB world. Fill it with color and you'll do better. Even minimalist sites like my own have color spots.

Crawford (11/1/99 9:51 AM): What do you thing a good logo should cost.

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:51 AM): Yes, Meg, I agree with that, too. Create your logo and stick with it. Nothing says "instability" more than an ever-changing identity.

Meg Rottman (StylePR) (11/1/99 9:51 AM): We've worked with many graphic artists to develop a logo. It has to be "hands on" -- you just can't give them your ideas and then walk away.

Glenda (11/1/99 9:52 AM): Speaking as an ad specialties dealer...that logo should also look good as a one or two color imprint...full color logos can be expensive to imprint

Guy R Cook - (11/1/99 9:52 AM): Glenda, I always test them as black and white too

Meg Rottman (StylePR) (11/1/99 9:52 AM): Good point Glenda

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:52 AM): Crawford, a college kid will do it for $150. A major agency will charge $150,000 or more. Personally, I charge a $7500 minimum, because it inevitably requires a branding strategy developed (on a summary level). (11/1/99 9:53 AM): Crawford, a good logo from a good marketing co. should cost between $2K to $3K CDN without full corporate identity. If you e-mail me I will refer a couple to you.

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:53 AM): Yes, Guy, I always subject the logo to the "fax machine" test. If it can survive a fax, it can survive anything.

Guy R Cook - (11/1/99 9:54 AM): Rob, can you send me the URL's of some of your logo work for $7500 ?

Crawford (11/1/99 9:55 AM): I wouldn't mind seeing you logo designs also..

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:55 AM): has a couple...

Meg Rottman (StylePR) (11/1/99 9:56 AM): Need to sign off --- Thanks everyone for book ideas - Rob, I'll speak to you later.

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:57 AM): Okie doke. Talk to you later Meg.

Guy R Cook - (11/1/99 9:57 AM): I wish that there was a way to get everyone's URL that logged onto chat each time...

Dorothy (11/1/99 9:58 AM): I'm off too... Thanks for everything, Rob!

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:58 AM): Guy. I'll se what I can do to put instructions to the effect in the top frame.

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:58 AM): (TWO MINUTES)

Guy R Cook - (11/1/99 9:58 AM): Have a great day everyone, have to get busy too.

Crawford (11/1/99 9:59 AM): Thanks for all your help today Rob and everyone else who contributed. Crawford

RobFrankel (11/1/99 9:59 AM): You bet, guys. Have a great week and I'll see you online! (11/1/99 9:59 AM): Good Buy everyone. I will send the Road Map off to everyone who requests it.

Crawford (11/1/99 9:59 AM): There is a transcript page is there not?

Glenda (11/1/99 10:00 AM): Is Terri still here?

Terri ( (11/1/99 10:00 AM): Thanks for the great info Rob!

RobFrankel (11/1/99 10:00 AM): Yes, Crawford.

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