Transcript of Frankel's Free Clinic November 25, 2002

RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:02 AM): Whoa, sorry I'm late, but things are already going nuts on this side of the screen.....
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:03 AM): Anyone new today?  We always let the new guys go first....
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:03 AM): Pat, thanks for sending Mike Quick my way.  Unfortunately, he wasn't able to help.
Mark Riffey (11/25/102 9:03 AM): Entered the room.
Pat ( (11/25/102 9:04 AM): Rob - No problem.
Mark Riffey (11/25/102 9:04 AM): Rob,
Pat ( (11/25/102 9:04 AM): Well, I tried.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:04 AM): Hi Mark...what can I help you with today?
Mark Riffey (11/25/102 9:05 AM): Sorry, press enter too quickly <G>. Rob, IÕm new but I really donÕt have anything to ask at the moment. We produce vertical biz mgmt software for photo studios and cultured marble shops. Enjoying your resources so far.
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:06 AM): Entered the room.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:06 AM): Wow, talk about a niche market!  Okay, mark, no prob.  Anyone else got something?  Because if not, I'm looking for media contacts at places like FOX news, if anyone has 'em....
John Charlesworth ( Professional Web Tracking) (11/25/102 9:07 AM): Entered the room.
Tamra ( (11/25/102 9:07 AM): Hey Rob -- have you seen the new EBay TV commercial? Any comments on it?
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:07 AM): Rob, I thought your Frankel Tips was great this week (about search engines).
Ascentive_Mike (11/25/102 9:08 AM): Entered the room.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:08 AM): Anita, thanks. I'm finding that so many people try to dump one reason for doing pay per click, and it's a multi-dimensional story.  Coming from a pro like you, I appreciate that.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:09 AM): No Tamra, I know I've seen them but I can't recall.  I personally think EBay is one of the few companies that does most things right.
Frederick ( (11/25/102 9:09 AM): How about this for a hypothetical question: If, as you say, Rob, that branding is not about US it is about THEM, how do you handle a situation where a business sells to different audiences?
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:09 AM): I'm beginning to doubt my pro status these days.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:11 AM): Frederick, you have to develop a brand that speaks to each audience's view of what their solution needs to be.  In my case, for example, I do branding.  But I do branding for all kinds of businesses.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:11 AM): Anita, why is that?
Frederick ( (11/25/102 9:11 AM): So one would have several brands for a single product?
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:11 AM): So Frederick, my branding is the solution to their branding problems.
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:12 AM): There is so much competition and clients who think that their site will show up the next day on the search engines.
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:12 AM): I seem to spend most of my time reassuring clients, rather than working.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:12 AM): No, Frederick, it's one brand that many can visualize as their own, personalizing what you offer them
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:13 AM): I cannot guarantee top search engine placement, so I lose clients to those SEOs that do.
Frederick ( (11/25/102 9:13 AM): Oh - that's gotta be pretty tricky, huh?
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:13 AM): Anita, this is why the brand is so important.  You have to give them something that they can't get anywhere else.  Also, you want to attract the kind of people who can accept the fact that it happens over time. 
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:14 AM): Anita, you eventually have to deliver, but you have to deliver on what you promise.  Understand that what you promise is where it starts.
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:14 AM): I think that it is a problem of education.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:14 AM): Frederick, THAT'S why you hire a branding consultant...tee hee.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:15 AM): Anita, it's ALWAYS a problem of education.  Education is 90% of the sales process.  First topic is WHAT they need, second is how it works, third is what they should expect.
Frederick ( (11/25/102 9:15 AM): (I thought you'd like the lead in...)
Pat ( (11/25/102 9:15 AM): Anita, do they actually provide guaranteed results?
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:16 AM): I am starting to partner with companies that offer the pay per click work.
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:16 AM): Pat, yes, if you are willing to pay BIG bucks.
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:17 AM): A new client researched several other companies and told me that they were charging between $2,000-10,000.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:17 AM): Anita, that could be the problem:  maybe you're shooting too low.  Believe me, I have much better relations/results with my higher end clients.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:17 AM): And if it's not telling tales out of school, Anita, what was your bid?
Pat ( (11/25/102 9:17 AM): I would think that in order to guarantee results, you'd have to be buddy buddy with the search engine companies.
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:18 AM): Well, I did raise my rates, and have been flooded ever since.
Tamra ( (11/25/102 9:18 AM): Anita, our full SEO package starts at $2,500 (not counting fees paid to the search engines)
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:19 AM): Wait minute, business up and you're upset?  What's wrong with this picture?
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:19 AM): For small businesses (1-5 pages) it is $375 and for larger sites it is $524 (with paid inclusions to 2 search engines).
Peter Cooper ( (11/25/102 9:19 AM): Entered the room.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:19 AM): Well, that's probably it.  Sounds to me you need to move on up the customer quality scale.
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:19 AM): No, I am upset because I feel that I am not doing enough for the clients.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:20 AM): Are your clients complaining?
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:21 AM): No, just confused.
Peter Cooper ( (11/25/102 9:21 AM): One of the biggest problems related to SEO is when a site gets tons of visitors, but the site doesn't 'convert'. Big discussion about this on I-Sales recently.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:21 AM): Anita, listen to this:  part of the education is letting clients know what they can expect.  You have to get comfortable with the fact that their expectations are what you tell them to be.  If that doesn't jibe with what you feel should be the total job, realize that it's YOUR expectations that need to be adjusted....
Peter Cooper ( (11/25/102 9:21 AM): Perhaps you could work with them on getting pages to 'convert'.. rather than just getting visitors.
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:22 AM): Peter, you mean clicks to sales?
Jodie ( (11/25/102 9:22 AM): Entered the room.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:22 AM): Peter, that's been a big issue of mine for about five years now
Peter Cooper ( (11/25/102 9:22 AM): Anita: Yeah. Is the problem the companies aren't getting the visitors they expect, or the sales?
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:22 AM): The sales, I expect.
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:23 AM): As Rob pointed out in the Tips, high rankings doesn't necessarily mean high sales.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:23 AM): Anita, one way that I've worked around this problem is to present a proposal that delivers various parts of a total program.  1. Brand strategy and brand creation  2  Brand implementation and materials  3.  Branded Community.  They choose what they want.  If they choose only the brand creation, I know that they'll need more, but it's their choice.  They can come back for the implementation part.
Frederick ( (11/25/102 9:23 AM): Number of visitors is almost insignificant - the number or amount of sales is the important measure, surely?
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:24 AM): Right.  I don't care how many/few people visit my site, because my site sales and traffic are completely unrelated.
Peter Cooper ( (11/25/102 9:24 AM): Fred: It's not insignificant if you're the SEO guy, you're getting them traffic, but their awful site isn't converting and they won't let you fix it ;-)  (aka time to ditch client)
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:25 AM): Peter is on to something here, Anita.  Your job is to secure ranking, nothing more.  Not traffic.  not sales.
Michael ( (11/25/102 9:25 AM): Entered the room.
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:25 AM): And that is were the advertising and marketing break down.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:26 AM): Peter, I had the same problem with a FrankelBiz sponsor.  I got them tons of qualified traffic, but before they ran, I warned them they weren't likely to convert to sales.  Their site was terrible.
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:26 AM): The media has long trumpeted that high ranking and high sales are the same.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:26 AM): As a result, that's exactly what happened.  Lots of traffic, maybe two sales.
Pat ( (11/25/102 9:26 AM): Anita, which of course is absolutely incorrect.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:27 AM): The media????  What the hell do they know?  A bunch of talking heads who repeat what they're told.
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:27 AM): I tell my clients that I can get the targeted traffic.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:27 AM): Anita, I'll say it again: if you promise them high ranking, that's all you're expected to deliver.
Frederick ( (11/25/102 9:27 AM): Of course, Rob - that's what the news media is supposed to do.
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:27 AM): And that I can get the search engines to index their sites. I am not a web designer.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:29 AM): Fred, it wasn't like this before the media laws in the USA were relaxed.  It used to be illegal for one company to own more than five media outlets in one market
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:29 AM): BTW, once again, if anyone knows anyone at FOX TV or MSNBC or any other hack media, I want to pitch them the
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:29 AM): I do, however, make suggestions in order to optimize the site properly.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:30 AM): That's fine, Anita, as long as you don't promise anything more than ranking.  Delivering conversion is TOTALLY out of your bailiwick.
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:30 AM): Rob, have you tried Bill O'Reilly?
Mark Riffey (11/25/102 9:31 AM): Anita, I was just thinking the same thing <G>
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:31 AM): Anita, I did send to that address, but I'm not sure it went through.
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:31 AM): Check for other media contacts.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:31 AM): O'Reilly is perfect for this, but getting in there is difficult.  I've always found that the "six degrees of separation" tactic works best.
Jodie ( (11/25/102 9:32 AM): I'd contact Lorilyn Bailey -
Jodie ( (11/25/102 9:32 AM): A FrankelBee to boot ;-)
Peter Cooper ( (11/25/102 9:32 AM): I'm not sure even the 'Pay Pal Sucks' people got much coverage.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:34 AM): Peter, you'd be amazed at the response we're getting after just one week...including a response from CardService International...
Cheryl Lynn Spencer ( (11/25/102 9:35 AM): What did they have to say Rob?
Peter Cooper ( (11/25/102 9:35 AM): Well, if that lady managed to sort out her bizarre rent problem, I'm sure you can sort this, Rob :-)
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:35 AM): Local "TroubleShooter" news folks might be useful.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:36 AM): Cheryl, they're offering a minor refund as a "courtesy discount."
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:36 AM): But only if I take the site down.
Jodie ( (11/25/102 9:36 AM): They don't get it
Peter Cooper ( (11/25/102 9:37 AM): 'minor refund'.. sounds like, we'll still rip you off, but just not as much :-)
Cheryl Lynn Spencer ( (11/25/102 9:37 AM): Of course! They don't want the bad publicity.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:38 AM): Right.  This is why I'm putting out the call for media contacts.
Frederick ( (11/25/102 9:39 AM): Rob, your story is probably not going to newsworthy for retail customers (the general news audience) - you need someone who speaks B2B, donÕt you?
Jodie ( (11/25/102 9:40 AM): Venture
Mark Riffey (11/25/102 9:40 AM): Rob, have you tried the GripeLine at
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:42 AM): Not really, Fred, when you consider that this affects tens of millions of merchants world wide.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:43 AM): No Mark, but FeedbackPlanet was the mention that got to CSI.
Mark Riffey (11/25/102 9:44 AM): The folks at GripeLine actually make phone calls on the issues they tackle. InfoWorld has gets some serious face time in the geek world.
Peter Cooper ( (11/25/102 9:45 AM): Newsworthiness is always a problem. Thousands are screaming for Yahoo's blood after the restructure diminished their Yahoo Express investments.. but that barely got any coverage, even in the industry mags.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:45 AM): What's the URL for that Mark? 
Mark Riffey (11/25/102 9:46 AM):
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:48 AM): Okay, just sent out a FB post asking the bees for help
Mark Riffey (11/25/102 9:48 AM): is the address to start with. The guy who runs that area is Ed Foster
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:48 AM): Enough about me. Who else wants to jump in on something?
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:48 AM): Ah, thanks, Mark!
Peter Cooper ( (11/25/102 9:49 AM): Unfortunately I gotta go eat dinner, but, come on, someone ask him a question! ;-)
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:50 AM): (TEN MINUTE WARNING)
Pat ( (11/25/102 9:51 AM): (Thinking of a question....)
Pat ( (11/25/102 9:51 AM): Nope. None this week. I think my question requires a FrankelCall.
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:51 AM): Since I am branded as an SEO, would a tip booklet be useful for me to sell?
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:53 AM): Something like "101 Tips to Search Engine Optimization"?
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:53 AM): Anita, I prefer to give a list of tips away for free.  This is what I do with Frankel's Laws of Big Time Branding.  This kind of stuff is worth giving away because it's short and valuable.  A good business tool
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:53 AM): Anita, I wouldn't recommend that because it undermines your services.  You don't want people to think, "Hey, why pay Anita?  I can download her tip sheet for a lot less!"
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:54 AM): Exactly my thought.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:54 AM): Believe me, many people buy The Revenge of Brand X thinking it's a "how to" book, while I constantly stress that it isn't.
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:55 AM): Perhaps a tips sheet of information.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:55 AM): On the other hand, if you write "what you should and should NOT expect from SEO", you'll be addressing the real problem and telling them what nobody else will.  that's a great branding/business tool
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:56 AM): That's what ROBX really does well.  it finally clears up what branding is, isn't and should be.  That gets prospects on the right track.
Mark Riffey (11/25/102 9:57 AM): Anita, have you considered partnering or advertising with (assuming you arenÕt already) the folks at webposition?
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:57 AM): Rob, what do you think of the Poor Richard's Book of Branding?
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:57 AM): (TWO MINUTES)
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:57 AM): Mark, you mean WebPosition Gold?
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:57 AM): Anita, who wrote that one?
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:58 AM): Bob Baker. The title is Branding Yourself Online.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 9:59 AM): Oh.  Um.  No comment.
Mark Riffey (11/25/102 9:59 AM): Anita - yes
Anita ( (11/25/102 9:59 AM): WebPosition Gold (I have the older version) has a submit function
Pat ( (11/25/102 10:00 AM): Don't use that submit function!
Anita ( (11/25/102 10:00 AM): I get their newsletter, but they probably aren't interested in such a small fish as myself.
Pat ( (11/25/102 10:00 AM): The most relevant search engines do not allow for auto submission anymore.
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 10:00 AM): Anita, I don't trust anything endorsed by Jay Conrad Levinson. 
Anita ( (11/25/102 10:00 AM): Pat, no I hand submit everything.
Cheryl Lynn Spencer ( (11/25/102 10:01 AM): Anita, you never know unless you ask!
RobFrankel ( (11/25/102 10:01 AM): Okay you Americans have a great Thanksgiving holiday.  This is a slow week, so I'm taking the time to upgrade our systems.  But I'll be online all week!
Pat ( (11/25/102 10:01 AM): Have a good week everyone.
Anita ( (11/25/102 10:01 AM): See you next week!
Cheryl Lynn Spencer ( (11/25/102 10:01 AM): Bye everyone!
Anita ( (11/25/102 10:01 AM): Oh, and Happy Chanukah!
Frederick ( (11/25/102 10:02 AM): Bye

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