Transcript of Frankel's Free Clinic November 8, 1999

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:01 AM): Entered the room.

Terri ( (11/8/99 9:01 AM): Greetings, Rob!

Guy R Cook - (11/8/99 9:01 AM): Just peeked at Yancey's site, everyone be sure you do that, it's VERY nice looking.

Andy TeBockhorst (11/8/99 9:01 AM): Terri, we move in to our new place in two weeks... it's a done deal!

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:01 AM): Greetings, everyone! Hey, it's finally raining in Southern California!

Glenda (11/8/99 9:01 AM): Entered the room.

Glenda (11/8/99 9:02 AM): Hello everyone

Kieran (11/8/99 9:02 AM): Entered the room.

Clayton T( (11/8/99 9:02 AM): Hello everyone!

Andy TeBockhorst (11/8/99 9:02 AM): Send some of that to the Midwest, socal!

Terri ( (11/8/99 9:02 AM): That's great Andy! Rob, don't send any rain here, please!

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:02 AM): What's on whose mind this morning?

Yancey @ (11/8/99 9:02 AM): Thanks Guy, we worked very hard on it.

Andy TeBockhorst (11/8/99 9:03 AM): Rob, I have an interesting new marketing challenge

Andy TeBockhorst (11/8/99 9:04 AM): A friend of mine has produced a fabulous CD, and he wants to sell it directly (i.e. without a record company.) It's good enough to market nationwide. Any thoughts on how to go about doing that?

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:04 AM): Hit it, Andy...

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:04 AM): Well, the obvious first question is if he's listed it on MP3...

Andy TeBockhorst (11/8/99 9:05 AM): I have set up a temporary website at

Andy TeBockhorst (11/8/99 9:05 AM): Not yet... I plan to do that later today. (11/8/99 9:05 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:05 AM): The second question is to check if Amazon (or that ilk) will sell your CD the same way they'll sell self-published books.

Andy TeBockhorst (11/8/99 9:06 AM): Once the website is permanent at, I'll set it up to sell directly online with a credit card.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:06 AM): The most important thing, though, is to start farming your fan club base...they DO have fans, don't they?

Andy TeBockhorst (11/8/99 9:07 AM): I wasn't aware that Amazon sells self published books! They have fans, but only in Des Moines, Iowa. He hopes to organize a tour for the spring.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:07 AM): You might as well go for the BlairWitch effect....go the viral marketing route. I'm assuming you don't have a spare million to throw at advertising.

Terri ( (11/8/99 9:07 AM): See if the fans have e-mail and develop a sig line for them to use to promote the CD Andy

Andy TeBockhorst (11/8/99 9:08 AM): that is correct... he is willing to invest some $$ in advertising, but it ain't no million!

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:08 AM): Another GREAT promotional vehicle (if you spend some bucks) are custom pre-paid long distance phone cards. People LOVE them.

Andy TeBockhorst (11/8/99 9:08 AM): I don't get the connection? (11/8/99 9:09 AM): E-bay and similar sites are a good place to sell unique items like a CD

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:09 AM): Assuming that most music fans are, ummm, CHEAP...these cards are great giveaways that can attract sponsorships for touring. (11/8/99 9:09 AM): You also get great exposure.

Kieran (11/8/99 9:09 AM): Entered the room.

Terri ( (11/8/99 9:10 AM): Isn't there an auction person on FrankelBiz?

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:10 AM): I had a long distance client once who sponsored local bands. They would produce the cards with the bands' names on them and give them away at appearances. Worked great. (11/8/99 9:10 AM): My brother sells unique n scale trains on e-bay

Andy TeBockhorst (11/8/99 9:10 AM): He talked about buying spots in several key ADIs on VH1 and doing an 800 number & website order option. Opinion?

Glenda (11/8/99 9:11 AM): Key chain with flashlights are good giveaways for concerts after dark they can be used for audience participation

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:11 AM): Andy, unless you can keep the spending up at a constant level, forget TV and cable. What's his budget? (Roughly) Over what time frame?

Guy R Cook - (11/8/99 9:12 AM): Glenda, what is your URL?

Andy TeBockhorst (11/8/99 9:12 AM): Don't have any figures, but I don't get the impression he can maintain a serious TV campaign for any length of time. I agree this isn't a very strong option (at least not at first.) (11/8/99 9:12 AM): Also, what is his product, what kind of music, then target to his audience.

Glenda (11/8/99 9:13 AM): To which site Guy?

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:13 AM): Andy, the smart way to build this is from a point of strength. That's your fan base. You should view them as your potential sales force.

Andy TeBockhorst (11/8/99 9:13 AM): The music has a great classic rock sound, like Yes or Rush or ELO

Guy R Cook - (11/8/99 9:13 AM): Your main one. Your company like it says in the top frame of chat.

Andy TeBockhorst (11/8/99 9:14 AM): So Rob, are you saying to depend on Word of Mouth? that is easily the most effective form of advertising, but also the most impossible to influence or control.

Glenda (11/8/99 9:14 AM): Well I actually have two Guy, and my promo products site which Dennis Bevers is handling for me temporarily is

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:14 AM): Andy, there's way too much of that on TV, anyway. Of course, you KNOW where this is going to lead....what's the band brand identity? (11/8/99 9:14 AM): So late boomers then (I am one of them)

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:15 AM): Andy, that's the point of branding: articulating the brand so that everyone gets it right whenever they refer it. Don't worry about control, just make them click.

Andy TeBockhorst (11/8/99 9:16 AM): Well, that is something we need to define. Hal Thompson is a solo artist who wrote, performed and recorded the entire project himself... all instruments, vocals etc were his own.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:16 AM): How is the band positioned? Why should I choose them over another? What compelling way do you have to convey that information?

Guy R Cook - (11/8/99 9:16 AM): Thanks Glenda, Andy what is your URL please.

Andy TeBockhorst (11/8/99 9:17 AM): If I could answer those questions, I'd have my own platinum record by now... I get your point though.

Glenda (11/8/99 9:17 AM): Is he trying to get his CD picked up by radio stations Andy?

Andy TeBockhorst (11/8/99 9:17 AM): The URL we are discussing now is

Andy TeBockhorst (11/8/99 9:18 AM): He would love to get as much airplay as possible... very difficult without a record company involved.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:18 AM): Andy, the key to music is exposure -- for both the band and the music. Until you can get the music samples, though, it has to get exposure, even if it just gets people wondering. Grassroots music launch is probably the most difficult launch to do.

Andy TeBockhorst (11/8/99 9:19 AM): Well, we'll give it a go. I'll keep you all up to date on this one. He definitely has the talent and the product to make it go.

Terri ( (11/8/99 9:20 AM): Andy, you should check out the I think it is .. they have all kinds of "radio stations" that are done by individuals listed there - it's one way to get on the air

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:20 AM): I also think you should really start to locate new, start-up record labels that are at the same level you are. They might be easier to negotiate with.

Guy R Cook - (11/8/99 9:20 AM): Kieran, what is your URL please

Andy TeBockhorst (11/8/99 9:20 AM): I'll research that Terri, thanks.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:20 AM): Anyone else here that isn't trying to top the record charts?

Andy TeBockhorst (11/8/99 9:21 AM): Hal wants to keep all the money himself. Labels take a big bite. I don't know if he can do it, but bully to him if he can!

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:21 AM): Inventor's Rule #1: "It's better to have 10% of something than 100% of nothing."

Kat ( (11/8/99 9:22 AM): I have a ? about click and mortar marketing

Andy TeBockhorst (11/8/99 9:22 AM): I'll remember that one!

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:22 AM): Go Kat!

Glenda (11/8/99 9:23 AM): Right Rob, he can form his own label but when it comes to promotion and distribution...better to have a record company behind you

Kat ( (11/8/99 9:23 AM): We started approaching online sports stores and soon found crossover with traditional brick and mortar. Where should we focus?

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:24 AM): Kat, can you give me more details about your biz?

Kat ( (11/8/99 9:24 AM): Entered the room.

Kat ( (11/8/99 9:24 AM): interactive multimedia CD for teaching youth soccer (11/8/99 9:24 AM): Entered the room.

Kat ( (11/8/99 9:25 AM): Entered the room.

Kat ( (11/8/99 9:25 AM): The Soccer Coach Series...

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:25 AM): Well, Kat, how long have you been online?

Kat ( (11/8/99 9:26 AM): the company website about 8 months

Glenda( (11/8/99 9:26 AM): Entered the room.

Kat ( (11/8/99 9:26 AM): Have had some sales with Academy, MicroCenter and are listed with TSI Sports and others

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:27 AM): Well, the first thing I'll tell you is that online is waaaay more profitable that click and mortar. Especially because your cash flow is much better online.

Guy R Cook - (11/8/99 9:27 AM): Mike Tingle: What is your URL please? (11/8/99 9:27 AM): Kat, have you approached stores or leagues in Canada, we are Soccer crazy up here.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:28 AM): What you should realize is that with brick and mortar, it often takes months to get your money out of them -- assuming that they don't return the stuff you "sold" them.

Kat ( (11/8/99 9:28 AM): Not yet approached Canada (11/8/99 9:28 AM): The Toronto and Vancouver markets are juicy ones for Soccer

Tom Stefan (11/8/99 9:29 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:29 AM): By the time you're done with brick and mortar stores, it could be six months and maybe a 5% real margin you make on your goods when you factor in the cost of managing the account (time, phone, postage, anxiety)

Kat ( (11/8/99 9:29 AM): That's good to know, thanks jozef

Guy R Cook - (11/8/99 9:29 AM): Tom, what is your URL please? (11/8/99 9:30 AM): Actually Rob, I would use a two prong approach, sell online and in stores, the Shelf space is good promotion just in itself.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:30 AM): I had this issue with a software client of mine. They wanted to sell a box to CompUSA for $66 to retail at $99, By the time they paid for the boxes, manuals, and waited for CompUSA to pay, they actually LOST money on every box.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:30 AM): Guy, is there a reason why you're asking for URL's?

Kat ( (11/8/99 9:30 AM): so true, Rob. We'd like to be 100% web

Yancey @ (11/8/99 9:30 AM): I know that football is soccer but you have branded everywhere with SoccerCoach and your title says Football Coach.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:31 AM): Kat, that's why I would stay focused online, and use offline as icing on the cake.

Kat ( (11/8/99 9:31 AM): We had similar exp with CompUSA

Guy R Cook - (11/8/99 9:31 AM): Yes, Rob I am doing a comparative on screen sizes, building a directory of FrankelBees too in my bookmarks, I'd whisper if I could (11/8/99 9:31 AM): In fact, I would give every store a display with your web site on it.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:32 AM): GUY: Okay, let's keep it down, though. I promise the FrankelBees that there is no cataloguing of their sites and you're in danger of compromising that promise....

Kat ( (11/8/99 9:32 AM): Best practice for approaching online would be....? (11/8/99 9:32 AM): Use the bricks to your advantage. List the bricks on your web site.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:32 AM): Approaching online what, Kat...distributors? Retailers?

Andy TeBockhorst (11/8/99 9:33 AM): Gotta run gang... Pokemon is calling! Thanks Rob and everyone else for the advice. See you next week!

Guy R Cook - (11/8/99 9:33 AM): I wasn't aware I was making an online catalog, thanks for the info.

Terri ( (11/8/99 9:33 AM): Bye Andy! Good luck on your CD venture :)

Kat ( (11/8/99 9:33 AM): That's the thing, it is beginning to blur brick and mortar becoming click and mortar

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:34 AM): Kat, assuming that you're a smaller operation, your best bet is high leverage. Use the more powerful E-tailers who are quicker, more efficient and better funded.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:35 AM): Let the E-tailers like ToysRUS make the decision about which way they prefer to merchandise your product. You just fill the direct-to-end-user and wholesale markets.

Guy R Cook - (11/8/99 9:35 AM): Rob, should Kat try having resellers of the CD?

Jose C (11/8/99 9:36 AM): Entered the room. (11/8/99 9:36 AM): Rob, he won't get into ToysRUS until he can show he is in other stores. The bricks and mortar give him a track record.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:36 AM): Remember, too, that brick and mortars often demand extra money from you for them to advertise your product in their stores....

Jose C (11/8/99 9:37 AM): Kat: Have you though about approaching distributors in Europe? They're true soccer fanatics and you might be able to strike up some reasonable relationships with on-line sites there.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:37 AM): Yes, you know, soccer is one of those brand-loyal categories. We have several FB's who own soccer sites. Soccer fans have a huge online base. I'd start there. (11/8/99 9:37 AM): The smaller independent stores don (11/8/99 9:37 AM): The smaller stores will let him display for free.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:38 AM): Jose, you're dead on, there. Rule #1: When you want fish, you go where the fish are.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:39 AM): The problem with brick and mortar is that you, the manufacturer, have to invest all the money into inventory, shipping and promotion. Way more than appears to you at first.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:39 AM): Online, your only cost are your real costs: product, fulfillment, etc.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:39 AM): No hidden costs, like "co-op ads" or "slotting fees"....

Guy R Cook - (11/8/99 9:40 AM): Shipping wouldn't be new money would it? Has to be shipped in either venue?

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:40 AM): Of course shipping is new money: shipping to the bricks, paying for returns that comes back -- and they always seem to claim the stuff they can't sell as "defective"....

Kat ( (11/8/99 9:40 AM): Okay, so an online promotion to soccer fans and contacts with larger e-tailers

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:41 AM): Costco, for example, will even charge you for every late day your unsold stuff sits on their shipping dock...

Guy R Cook - (11/8/99 9:42 AM): I don't agree about shipping being new money, Kat will ship whether he is dealing with brick or with click, and returns happen in both.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:42 AM): Kat, if you don't have the staying power (financially, and humans), you're way better off staying lean and mean. If you get brick accounts, consider them icing on the cake.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:43 AM): Kat, do you have a broad range of online distributors yet? That should be enough to demonstrate solid case history success.

Kat ( (11/8/99 9:43 AM): have offices in US and UK, staff of 10 going for 2nd round of funding PPM $1.2 million (11/8/99 9:44 AM): Kat, make sure you build a proper pricing model for online and offline. Don't underprice online and cannibalize the distributors.

Kat ( (11/8/99 9:44 AM): Not broad enough I think

Kat ( (11/8/99 9:45 AM): Josef, you're right that is another concern for us

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:45 AM): Kat, I wouldn't make a serious run at bricks with less than that much ear-marked specifically for that purpose. Don't forget, most of these guys want face to face meetings with buyers, and those buyers aren't normally rocket scientists. The sales cycle

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:46 AM): Jozef, that's another reason why I'd rather grow from online into bricks. Going backwards is much harder for the exact cannibalism you mention.

Jose C (11/8/99 9:46 AM): The UK is probably the best springboard into Europe for this, but realize there is a huge market in the EC. One problem might be the language in which your CD is presented. There are various translation services you could use to give it broader acceptance. (11/8/99 9:46 AM): Rob, if Kat prices too low online he will never do bricks.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:47 AM): Yancey, if you're still here, feel free to jump in....

Kat ( (11/8/99 9:47 AM): Jose, yes... language and slightly different rules of the game

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:47 AM): Jozef, if Kay prices ANYWHERE and the disc flies out the door, bricks won't care....they'll want it anyway. but as you know, I never price things too low.

Yancey @ (11/8/99 9:48 AM): I would say it depends on the bricks department running the site. If they are wanting anything they can get their hands on sell it to them. Just the same way as any other online company.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:48 AM): But you bring up a good point: the reason to stay online is NOT to drop your price, but to increase your profit margin on existing prices.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:49 AM): That way, bricks can get their margin and Kat can get margin, although Kat's is likely to be higher -- at both the wholesale and retail level. (11/8/99 9:50 AM): Kat, does your product lend itself to grass roots support from minor soccer associations?

Kat ( (11/8/99 9:51 AM): Yes and we have some of that like locally and the SAY has endorsed

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:51 AM): (TEN MINUTE WARNING)

Yancey @ (11/8/99 9:51 AM): Soccer teams use the free list services for player/league contact..

Kat ( (11/8/99 9:51 AM): We're working on FIFA endorsement (11/8/99 9:52 AM): Kat, I would suggest offering something to the minor associations on your web site. Like online stats for minor teams. It's not difficult to build. (11/8/99 9:52 AM): This way you capture the eyeballs of your target market.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:53 AM): It seems to me that soccer is a huge fan base, globally synchronous and fairly represented online. I'd say there's a real basis for putting online ahead of bricks. if the bricks want it, negotiate from strength by basing you business on the web. That's (11/8/99 9:53 AM): I would make the stats visitor submittable. so you don't have to enter the stats the coaches do. neat eh?

Clayton T( (11/8/99 9:53 AM): Gotta run y'all Thanks for all the good info, Rob See ya next week!

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:53 AM): That's the best way to get the best terms and conditions (11/8/99 9:54 AM): BTW, we at hpmarketing can build this visitor submittable feature for you.

Kat ( (11/8/99 9:55 AM): Thanks jozef, neat!!

JoAnna (11/8/99 9:55 AM): Entered the room.

JoAnna (11/8/99 9:55 AM): Yancey, any FB special promotions at

Kat ( (11/8/99 9:55 AM): Rob, you're suggesting using online success as leverage for offline? (11/8/99 9:55 AM): While the coaches are entering the stats they stare at your shopping cart too, grin.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:55 AM): Hey, look, Joanna's alarm clock finally rang!

JoAnna (11/8/99 9:56 AM): no, I've been lurking... so it didn't turn into another recruiting chat... :-) (11/8/99 9:56 AM): I call this technique, Capturing the critical event!

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:56 AM): Yes, Kat, I am. I think we've arrived at that level this year. Last year, nobody believed it.. This year, they sure do.

Terri ( (11/8/99 9:56 AM): *laffin* Hi JoAnna! Yancey, that is a wonderful site you have!

JoAnna (11/8/99 9:56 AM): ß -trying to be a good girl for a change

Yancey @ (11/8/99 9:57 AM): Thank you Terri, it is a lobar of love.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:57 AM): (TWO MINUTES)

Yancey @ (11/8/99 9:58 AM): Or something like that. ;-) (11/8/99 9:58 AM): So who is going to Hawaii. The air prices dropped here in Vancouver to $399 CDN ($275 U.S.) and $1.00 for kids.

Glenda( (11/8/99 9:58 AM): Two minutes already?

Kat ( (11/8/99 9:58 AM): Before we go I'd like to say thank you to everyone for their input

Guy R Cook - (11/8/99 9:58 AM): I am not going jozef, thanks for asking though.

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:59 AM): Yup...big day ahead...Going to a pitch meeting and begging, er, demonstrating why a new company should get $5 million...

Yancey @ (11/8/99 9:59 AM): Nice graphics on your site Kat!

RobFrankel (11/8/99 9:59 AM): Any time, Kat!

Guy R Cook - (11/8/99 9:59 AM): I thank everyone for their URL that is staying on my desktop in my bookmarks.

Kat ( (11/8/99 9:59 AM): Thanks, Yancey

RobFrankel (11/8/99 10:00 AM): Guy, no publishing those URL's. okay? Please...

Terri ( (11/8/99 10:00 AM): Rob, everyone, great info today! Good luck on the begging.. errr demonstrating, Rob! See you all next week!

Guy R Cook - (11/8/99 10:00 AM): I hadn't even thought of publishing them, still not sure why you think I am that slow???

Kat ( (11/8/99 10:01 AM): Rob is the get $5M or give $5M?

RobFrankel (11/8/99 10:01 AM): Alrighty, everyone, thanks for a really hard-working session! Good stuff. I'll see you online!

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