Transcript of Frankel's Free Clinic December 21, 1998

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:00 AM): Entered the room.

Bob Garber - (12/21/98 9:00 AM): Entered the room. (12/21/98 9:01 AM): So Rob what's the good word?

David (12/21/98 9:01 AM): Anyone from the Phila area?

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:01 AM): Whoa...too much partying last night...good morning!

Sage (12/21/98 9:01 AM): Entered the room.

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:01 AM): Bob, did we ever pursue the idea of using that Maryland property as a prize? (12/21/98 9:01 AM): Lehigh Valley Close Enough?

Bob Garber - (12/21/98 9:01 AM): Good Morning all!

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:01 AM): I'm from Jenkintown, just north of Philadelphia.

David (12/21/98 9:02 AM): Hi Bob Garber, David from Computer Money.

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:02 AM): The good word is that while you guys have been living it up at the annual Xmas party, I've been meeting with potential sponsors for the FB's.

Bob Garber - (12/21/98 9:02 AM): Hi David (12/21/98 9:02 AM): Right off the turnpike?

David (12/21/98 9:02 AM): I lived in Jenkintown and Rydal for a while. My Mom is still in Rydal. (12/21/98 9:02 AM): Really, tell us more

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:03 AM): Within the next month or so, we'll have a couple of programs in place that will focus more on earning revenue for FrankelBees.

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:03 AM): what party? Did I miss something, Rob?

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:04 AM): Oh, David, um...we had a FrankelBiz Xmas party...didn't you get the invitation?

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:04 AM): yeah, we're maybe 4-5 miles south of Exit 27, PA (12/21/98 9:04 AM): Cool

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:04 AM): musta missed that post :-(

Jacob (12/21/98 9:04 AM): Entered the room.

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:05 AM): not a problem; this being the first holiday season without an employer (finally!), I was finally able to avoid the office parties

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:05 AM): Muhammed was there. Drank too much, got naked, jumped on the Xerox and photocopied his...

Jacob (12/21/98 9:05 AM): Hello everyone, happy 21st!

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:06 AM): Everyone take note: this is indeed the shortest day of the year. After today, the days start getting longer (at least here in the USA)

David Epstein - Computer Money (12/21/98 9:06 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:06 AM): Bob, I see by the posts that you got a happy client! Congratulations! (12/21/98 9:07 AM): Uh Rob, that was my evil twin. I don't drink.

David Epstein - Computer Money (12/21/98 9:07 AM): Hi Jacob, how have you been?

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:07 AM): Well, it's a good thing Beroff wasn't there after what he did at LAST year's party...

dave (12/21/98 9:07 AM): Entered the room.

Bob Garber - (12/21/98 9:07 AM): Yeah... It's been great...

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:08 AM): Anyway, who's got what this morning? (12/21/98 9:08 AM): Never really had an employer, I've been a consultant forever. Except for brief stint at a print shop.

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:08 AM): Yes, and if you knew the culture of the Lehigh Valley, you would understand the reasons behind his sobriety.

Jacob (12/21/98 9:08 AM): Pretty great David, lots of work. I was actually planning on calling you today.

Bob Garber - (12/21/98 9:08 AM): Happy clients can really help your business

dave (12/21/98 9:08 AM): Yo! I'll just try and listen this time

Barb (12/21/98 9:08 AM): Entered the room.

Barb (12/21/98 9:08 AM): hi. nice place. (12/21/98 9:08 AM): hello Barbara.

David Epstein - Computer Money (12/21/98 9:09 AM): I'll be at 610-647-3655 all day - love to hear from you!

Barb (12/21/98 9:09 AM): hi, guy.

Jacob (12/21/98 9:09 AM): Can I just chime in and say once again how much I love this list and how great it has been to my business!

Barb (12/21/98 9:09 AM): hi, guy. (12/21/98 9:09 AM): Rob, I just invited Barbara, she owns and operates a great graphics studio called

Jacob (12/21/98 9:09 AM): will do david!

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:09 AM): Jacob, you can say that as much as you like.

Barb (12/21/98 9:10 AM): hello, Rob. pleased to meet you. (12/21/98 9:10 AM): Actually, I am the only non drinking student in the history of Lehigh U.

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:10 AM): Hi Barb. This is a great group. Feel free to jump in with any questions. I've just been filling the gaps with my obnoxiousness...

David Epstein - Computer Money (12/21/98 9:10 AM): I agree, Jacob. This is the most productive business list I have ever been on. (12/21/98 9:10 AM): Entered the room.

Jacob (12/21/98 9:10 AM): And I'll say it again Rob, the responses to my latest post have been unbelievable.

Barb (12/21/98 9:11 AM): Rob, what's your specialty?

David Epstein - Computer Money (12/21/98 9:11 AM): Muhammad, Lehigh is a great school. I live about an hour away.

Barb (12/21/98 9:11 AM): oh. I c. consulting services. sorry, I missed that.

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:11 AM): If no one else has anything, let me tell you what's in store for the group in 1999. And the best part is that I've recruited a true FrankelBee to work with me on this project, so I KNOW this list works!

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:12 AM): Barb, my specialty is branding, form which all business flows. (12/21/98 9:12 AM): Really, where exactly I am thinking about getting more ram for my PC.

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:12 AM): In fact, if anyone is in Austin, TX the week of February 12, I'll be giving my "Branding in the Fourth Dimension" speech there to a national convention.

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:13 AM): Muhammad, it's not so much the school as it is the surrounding culture. Schools traditionally have a separate sub-culture from the surrounding towns. :-)

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:13 AM): and if anyone isn't in Austin, he'll *still* be giving his speech. :-) (12/21/98 9:13 AM): Do your speaking engagements get arranged by an agent, Rob? (12/21/98 9:14 AM): Tell me about it, Lehigh U & Bethlehem are like two different countries?

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:14 AM): No, Guy, no self-respecting agent would handle me!

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:14 AM): David/Muhammed, enough with the old home week, eh? Let's get on to relevant stuff... (12/21/98 9:14 AM): Ha!

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:14 AM): I'm not intimate with the area, but from what little I know, yes, they are.

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:15 AM): Guy, I get all my speaking & consulting from referrals. Eventually, I suppose (when the book comes out) I might seek representation.

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:15 AM): true, true, Rob (12/21/98 9:15 AM): Are you speeches accompanied by PowerPoint presentations? (12/21/98 9:15 AM): Sorry!

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:16 AM): Funny you should ask, Guy. Yes, they are. I just updated it this week.

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:16 AM): and book sales :-)

Barb (12/21/98 9:16 AM): sorry, guys. got work to do. thanks for inviting me to the chat room, Guy.

dave (12/21/98 9:16 AM): I have a question. I think Rob said last week that most ad brokers/ad networks are either pirates or legit. How can you tell?

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:17 AM): See what happens when you don't talk business? Bye Barb.

Barb (12/21/98 9:17 AM): btw, anyone looking for a freelance technical writer? do let me know at (12/21/98 9:17 AM): Reason I ask is that some of our speakers from Microsoft have those too, and I want to build an archive at our site "" of those informative speeches.

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:17 AM): u c? Barb gets it! :-)

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:17 AM): There's a real strong but young movement springing up (I think you're in on it David) that will, IMHO, be the ultimate demise of the brokerage business.

Barb (12/21/98 9:18 AM): I know, rob. got a deadline to meet. will join you again, soon.

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:19 AM): Guy, I give a lot out for free, like my articles. I tend to keep the speeches and stuff locked up. For both content protection and timeliness reasons.

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:19 AM): But back to ad brokering, people are beginning to wise up about just "buying eyeballs". More importantly, the hosts are getting smart about being ripped off. (12/21/98 9:20 AM): ok, I will take a look at the site and add content in keeping with our "business to business" theme.

Barb (12/21/98 9:20 AM): bye, for real. (12/21/98 9:20 AM): Rob you are saying that eventually click thru's are going to be the standard rather than the exception?

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:20 AM): yeah, I've been wary, too; my attitude is that an ad network is going to be too busy with too many sites to worry about selling mine at a reasonable price

Barb (12/21/98 9:21 AM): do I log off? just close the browser? I am a web dork.

Barb (12/21/98 9:21 AM): do I log off? just close the browser? I am a web dork.

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:21 AM): I still haven't found a site out there who wouldn't benefit more from working with a small private firm than some automated banner rotation company. These brokers just churn the numbers, which doesn't do clients or hosts much good.

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:21 AM): Barb, just close the window.

Barb (12/21/98 9:21 AM): oh...ok. (12/21/98 9:21 AM): But she does great graphics!

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:22 AM): I have no problem in offering *individuals* a higher-than-average sales commission (20%) to make a reasonable ad purchase occur. I'm offering over US$1000 a month for anyone that can do this; not bad.

dave (12/21/98 9:22 AM): I just got my November information. 500,000 page impressions. 325,000 PIs on a click through program. My gross = $0.00

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:22 AM): Yeah, David. I keep telling people that the more you niche, the better you do. So seek out your own advertisers. I promise you, you'll get much better money and more reliable clients, because you'll be producing the results they want.

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:23 AM): Dave, is that Dave Doggett? (12/21/98 9:23 AM): OK, I give what's a PI David? (12/21/98 9:23 AM): I agree with Rob on this one... I manage my own banner sales, rotation software, etc. And both my Customers, and I do quite well.

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:23 AM): Oh, believe me, Rob; I do seek them out! :-) I'm just adding incentive in case others can help me, too.

dave (12/21/98 9:24 AM): PI = page impressions (12/21/98 9:24 AM): Scottm, what rotation software are you using?

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:24 AM): As long as we are discussing that, any idea what a fair CPM would be to advertise to potential advertisers?

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:24 AM): From what I can tell, the two best ways to make bucks advertising are pay per sale or flat monthly fee for a really well-niched, well-marketed site.

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:25 AM): AARRRGH! I HATE CPM models! They suck! And clients don't give a rat's ass about them anyway! Clients want sales!

dave (12/21/98 9:25 AM): dave = Dave Doggett (12/21/98 9:25 AM): I took three different perl programs, merged the best features of each, then rewrote it all.

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:25 AM): I do a few pay-per-sales, but it still looks like more $ comes in when it is CPM or CPC

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:26 AM): actually, Rob, I was asking how much I should PAY when I place ads on sites that reach potential advertisers. (12/21/98 9:26 AM): I tried a script once, but it was too random for me, I wanted to control the event schedule more than the random script would allow.

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:26 AM): You're way better off charging a flat monthly fee. CPM will run out of steam soon, because it has failed as an advertising model. And it should, because well-niched sites function on quality, not volume....

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:27 AM): You should PAY what you consider a lead to be worth. And offer it that way. That cost per lead should be part of your revenue model. Offer that to a host that will participate in pay per sale.

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:27 AM): As long as traffic is reasonably steady, a flat fee is the same as CPM. And if traffic isn't steady, the advertiser still wants their money to be somewhat proportional to ultimate results. (12/21/98 9:27 AM): When I price, I ask the client "how much are they spending now, to contact a potential client? (12/21/98 9:27 AM): That's key Guy... Your pricing models are much more flexible that way. I have two people on CPM, a couple on click thru, and another few on a % of sales.. Your own software is the key to that kind of flexibility.

dave (12/21/98 9:28 AM): But I haven't been able to find that matching sponsor

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:28 AM): No, David, you're 180 degrees off. The dollar amount may be the same, but CPM is a VOLUME strategy, figuring that a few buyers will drop through. Flat fee in a well-niched environment brings higher quality leads and more sales. (12/21/98 9:28 AM): In the "pay per sale model" it's very easy to rate, but if the banner isn't delivered enough times, then your percentages are directly affected.

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:28 AM): Oh, I do mention my commission-based offer whenever I inquire about buying ad space; no one has bit yet (they all seem comfy with CPM)

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:29 AM): Dave (Doggett), there are at least two matching sponsors for you. You're just not thinking about what you can offer others. you're too busy thinking about how t make money on your own.

Benjamin fits (12/21/98 9:30 AM): Entered the room. (12/21/98 9:30 AM): CPM is also, to give the agency buyers a "comfort zone" I think since their other buys in other media relate to CPM very easily

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:30 AM): Rob, I'm honestly not sure I understand. (12/21/98 9:30 AM): Guy... That's when you can help your customer, and yourself, by more precisely targeting the banner.

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:30 AM): Of course everyone's comfy with CPM -- it's easy and simple. Not effective, but easy.

dave (12/21/98 9:31 AM): Rob, I know of many sponsors that I would do a CTR program with but They don't want to do it.

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:31 AM): It's much harder to take the same money , hunt down the really effective, well-niched sites and buy a month's worth of presence on their sites. But that's WAY more effective. And I'll bet you, from a cash standpoint, less expensive, too. (12/21/98 9:32 AM): I agree Scott, but if the delivery system isn't within my price range too then it's a serious problem.

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:32 AM): "brings higher quality leads" ... how does the method of payment affect the clientele of the site & their CTR?

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:32 AM): Dave, why won't they do it?

Bob Garber - (12/21/98 9:32 AM): Happy clients can really help your business (12/21/98 9:33 AM): With monthly is part of the "math" determining how many PI's are delivered by the site, and what percentage of those will be for you?

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:33 AM): Because when you buy CPM, you're buying volume, not quality. Cost per thousands is based on thousands, not quality. Buy by niche, and you're getting less volume, but more highly qualified leads. (12/21/98 9:34 AM): If the bottom line is leads then why not just pay for what you want, instead of what you might get? (12/21/98 9:35 AM): A "sell results" instead of "sell demographics"

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:35 AM): Guy, I think you have to step out of the web realm and into the business world. Forget PI's -- concentrate more on unique visitors. In a well-niched site, those are the numbers you want. It's one reason why Dave Doggett's site interests me so much. He

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:35 AM): That's the whole point of buying by niche, Guy. Buy what's right, not what's available.

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:36 AM): Doggett gets well-niched visitors that average 15 page views per visit!

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:36 AM): Those kinds of numbers impress the hell out of me!

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:37 AM): what is Doggett's URL? (12/21/98 9:37 AM): What my point is though, is the money better spent if you only pay for leads, rather than the best rate in the world for monthly schedules.

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:37 AM): Another FrankelBee with a well0niched site is Laura gets tons of kids looking for free scholarship info. So does Kenny Sahr at

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:38 AM): Guy, o, I agree 100%. But can't always get everyone 2 play that way.

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:38 AM): Guy, sure you're better off paying only for leads, but that takes a lot of work investing in a lead program (which is what I'm working on for ALL of you!)

dave (12/21/98 9:38 AM): My URL is

Jacob (12/21/98 9:38 AM): I can personally vouch for how great Laura and Kenny run their sites. They both provided a client of mine with superb ad placement at great prices. They know their stuff! (12/21/98 9:39 AM): I am developing a lead program for web developers myself

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:39 AM): David, I get lots of people who want to sponsor FrankelBiz, but not all of them want to play by my rules. Too bad. Next in line does. (12/21/98 9:39 AM): I call it Dialone Developer, a call one place idea.

Dale Chambers (12/21/98 9:39 AM): Entered the room. (12/21/98 9:40 AM): Guy, that sounds interesting. contact me offlist I am curious to hear about it.

dave (12/21/98 9:40 AM): Rob, What are the rules?

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:40 AM): To anyone here that HOSTS a site, try spending some time on presenting your ad rates based on niched leads/monthly fee. You'll see how much easier the sales go when presented to the right client.

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:40 AM): Rob, I would do it myself, if I could afford it.

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:41 AM): NO RULES, dave, We're in marketing/advertising. We're here to break the rules. (12/21/98 9:41 AM): The site is young, but the idea is going well.

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:41 AM): Of course, if *you* were willing to accept 20% of sales, we could talk. :-) (Actually, my current offer is 5% for simple referrals, and 20% for actual sales-person-ship.) (12/21/98 9:41 AM): ok, Muhammad, will do.

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:41 AM): David, how much could it possibly cost? If you don't invest in this part of your business, why invest in anything else? (12/21/98 9:42 AM): Why charge for cost per lead, when CPM is available? You can make more $ that way. I don't foresee major portals going cost per sale or lead anytime soon.

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:42 AM): David, my rates are so ridiculously high that they even disgust me. But hang in there. By February, we will have the FrankelBiz Army -- you heard it here first -- and they will help you.

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:42 AM): Rob, I *am* investing; at this point, several 100's of US$, possibly low $K's.

dave (12/21/98 9:43 AM): You said " David, I get lots of people who want to sponsor FrankelBiz, but not all of them want to play by my rules." (12/21/98 9:43 AM): The only ones that will pay CPM and not per sale or per lead are the folks at agencies, small business will not rationalize the crap shoot that cpm can be.

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:43 AM): my point exactly, Rob; I can't afford u! :-)

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:43 AM): Forget what the majors are doing, Muhammed. They can afford to experiment and do whatever they want. We can't. we're little guys. What we do HAS to work. (12/21/98 9:44 AM): Touche'

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:44 AM): Oh, sorry Dave. My rules are no CPM's. no releasing of membership numbers or data. buy 30 days at a time for a flat fee." (12/21/98 9:44 AM): Right on, pay for results, not experiments in click thrus. (12/21/98 9:45 AM): Frankel biz army? Funny, my reservist enlistment runs out in February. Then I can in the Frankel Biz Army

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:45 AM): David, if you can't afford it, than trade for it. You might even get someone on the list to take it on commission, although I find that you get what you pay for....

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:45 AM): well, Rob, if I was paying for results, it wouldn't be a flat fee. I would just pay you based on actual sales.

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:45 AM): No, Muhammed, we're drafting and you're 1A. (12/21/98 9:46 AM): 1A? (12/21/98 9:46 AM): 1A?

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:46 AM): Fine by me David. That just means advertising on FrankelBiz isn't for you. (12/21/98 9:46 AM): I agree with David Beroff, since we're small put our money to better use

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:46 AM): 1A means you might as well get a haircut and report for duty. No excuses, no deferments.

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:47 AM): I agree that "u get what u pay 4"; but like u said, your rates disgust even u. :-) (12/21/98 9:47 AM): Better than 4F Muhammad (and I'm not giving up my Commission just yet.. I'll just duel enlist!)

Bob Garber - (12/21/98 9:47 AM): Happy clients can really help your business (12/21/98 9:47 AM): Or 8up

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:48 AM): The point is that CPM's -- especially for niched products/services -- are an ineffective model. The smaller your budget, the more you need to target.

Dale Chambers (12/21/98 9:48 AM): Entered the room.

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:48 AM): Entered the room.

Bob Garber - (12/21/98 9:48 AM): sorry Rob... Computer is inserting my last comment by itself

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:48 AM): Whoa! Did we all just crash? (12/21/98 9:49 AM): I don't think the bottom line is target, I think it's results and that is why I would sell them. (12/21/98 9:49 AM): I think so (12/21/98 9:49 AM): Server had an error Rob... I just reloaded the frame and it was okay again

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:49 AM): (TEN MINUTE WARNING)

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:49 AM): "we"!? Who's this "we" stuff? :-)

Jacob (12/21/98 9:49 AM): Fraid so Rob, but I just reloaded

Bob Garber - (12/21/98 9:49 AM): yeah... the chat is acting up today

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:50 AM): Anyway, the point is if you're really squeezed for cash, you can't afford to buy CPM. You've got to make your hits count. And that's buying niche sites for flat fees and locking them up for 30 days or so. (12/21/98 9:50 AM): I do enjoy these chats. Got to go stoke the stove, it's snowing here in Washington state. Later all.

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:51 AM): I got a strange "Internal Server" warning...that's what "we"

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:51 AM): Buy Guy.

dave (12/21/98 9:51 AM): Rob, I assume your advice is to not sign up with a network and do cost per sale with a highly niched advertiser

Jacob (12/21/98 9:52 AM): What about AdAuction, what are your thoughts on them Rob?

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:52 AM): Rob, so y do u say 1 thing & do another? If u truly believed in letting the smaller advertisers pay-for-results, u would accept that model 4 yr. own advertising

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:52 AM): I have no gripe against networks. If they can deliver a highly niched network of sites, great. I'm just saying that buying CPM's is worth a real hard look before you sign.

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:53 AM): I *almost* signed for AdAuction, Jacob, until it looked like the best they could fetch was US$2.50 CPM, a third of which went to them.

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:53 AM): No, not at all david. I'm saying "the right tool for the right job". In truth, FrankelBiz might not be a fit for you, but it is for others who have different specific goals and targets.

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:53 AM): The "Internal Server" error was on your *own* server. :-) It showed your name as the person to contact. :-)

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:54 AM): Yeah...""! haven't used that in two years

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:54 AM): true, the audience may not be a match, but I *have* been doing a ton of biz with everyone on the list, none-the-less.

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:55 AM): talk 2 yr. ISP about reconfiguring that

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:55 AM): I strongly believe that you can invent your strategy and see where it plays. Chances are that when you've thought it out on a "win/win" basis, you'll find loyal buyers.

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:56 AM): Of course, sponsors like have lots of bucks, anyway, so the FrankelBiz rates are chicken feed to them.

dave (12/21/98 9:56 AM): Rob Do you have any progress on LovePoetry . Should I call you after?

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:56 AM): This has been a good session. I think I'll recap this stuff for a NEWSLETTER this week. Thanks, you guys.

Thanks Rob (12/21/98 9:57 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:57 AM): I have one call in, Dave. This is a tough time of year. Hang in there. (12/21/98 9:57 AM): Great session Rob... See y'all next week! Happy Holidays all!

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:57 AM): (TWO MINUTES)

David Beroff (12/21/98 9:58 AM): Interesting. GoTo is willing to pay high rates to you, but only (what is it?) 2 cents to click-through'ers

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:58 AM): They classify the FrankelBiz buy as advertising, not lead generation...

dave (12/21/98 9:58 AM): Bye Rob, Happy Holidays

RobFrankel (12/21/98 9:59 AM): HO HO HO everyone. Have a great holiday. I'll be here again on Monday if you need anything....

Jacob (12/21/98 9:59 AM): Ver interesting debates today. Have a happy week everyone!

RobFrankel (12/21/98 10:00 AM): Okay, you guys, I've gotta run. But you are most welcome to continue as long as you want. You can also use this site to meet any time you like during the week. See you online!

Thanks Rob (12/21/98 10:00 AM): Thanks for the chat!

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